Sinatra / Capitol Sound Quality (and general discussion): Singles, Soundtracks, Etc.

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by MLutthans, Aug 10, 2013.

  1. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Re: HIGH HOPES
    I suspected it could be a Joyce, as there are multiple Joyce family members listed on the personnel roster for this session. Thanks!
    Gobs o' reverb, too.
    Anybody who reads these threads has suffered through my ramblings about dynamics, and how (IMO) once you get beyond about 3 dB difference , the lack of dynamics often become pretty easy to spot. Looking at 20(!) different stereo releases, the dynamics on 18 of them range from about -20 dB RMS (<----"widest measured dynamics," let's say) to -17.4 (still not bad), with only two that are below that 3dB window, at -16.9 and -16.3 (those being an early Australian CD, which SOUNDS really compressed right out of the gate, and the 1998 UK boxed set). The best of the mono mix releases, meanwhile, is at -16.5, and of the ten mono mix releases checked, the worst is clear down at 13.5. The mono releases range from "heavily compressed" (with bad tone and too much reverb) down to something approaching "brickwalled," albeit the 1959 variety, but this can't really be pinned on the disc mastering, as the mix itself seems to be heavily compressed. Even the Japanese "The Hit Maker" LP, which has very wide dynamics on most tracks, is the "best" (in terms of dynamics) on this track at a lowly 16.5. The mono release just has a very hard, edgy sound, in my opinion, which is too bad. (I guess I'd now add this to my "tracks I'd like to see newly remixed to mono" list.)

    Now, there are two "mono" releases that have wider dynamics and much better tone, and those are 1974's "His 20 Greatest Hits" LP from EMI in New Zealand (which boasts on the rear cover about only using original mono masters) and 1980's UK "Screen Sinatra" LP, but both of these tonally-excellent mono releases are FOLD-DOWNS from the stereo mix. I think this is a case, though, where I'd align with Bugs Bunny. You may recall that he was once lured by a mechanical rabbit, who gave him a kiss, causing him to say, "Mechanical....."
    Screen shot 2016-10-06 at 12.08.02 PM.png
    "So it's mechanical!"

    In raw terms, when comparing the true mono releases to the mono fold down releases, my knee-jerk reaction is, "So they're fold-downs!" Pointless and non-sensical as their releases may be, in raw terms, they sound better than the true mono releases. That's not an endorsement, per se, as I'd still take one of the good stereo releases (I suppose -- they are flawed, too), but they sound pretty good on their own terms.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2016
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  2. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    Jon and Jeff Joyce are Jimmy's sons.

    From: Jon Joyce - Roger Waters Wall Tours - Pink Floyd - A Fleeting Glimpse »

    Singing is literally in Jon’s DNA: born into a musical family in Los Angeles, the oldest of five children, his parents Jimmy and Betty Joyce were also vocalists and Jon was a member of the Jimmy Joyce Singers for most of his youth, appearing weekly on television programs such as The Carol Burnett Show and The Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour. A revered and in-demand session singer for over thirty years, Jon’s very first session was for a Frank Sinatra recording at age 12, and his credits are vastly numerous and varied as his rock-solid smooth baritone has graced commercials, television, film scores, albums, theatre, and live performance.​

    Google "Jimmy Joyce Children's Choir" for other appearances by this "bunch of kids."

    Also: Note that the Jimmy Joyce Singers are credited on the 1969 Reprise album, The Sinatra Family Wish You a Merry Christmas.
     
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  3. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Looking at stereo CD mastering of HIGH HOPES:

    The two releases I have that use the Norberg remix strike me as being among the worst-sounding things that fall under that umbrella.

    There are a couple of "wild card" masterings, using the original stereo mix, sourced from who-knows-what tapes, and those are the Australian THE COLLECTION from 1987 (the first digital release of this track), and the 1998 UK All the Way CD from the enormo-box. These are both quite poor sounding compared to other versions.

    There have been two additional UK CD releases that use the original mix, much better mastered, both from 1989. These are Screen Sinatra and Great Films & Shows, and the former is subtly superior.

    This brings us to the slew of releases that stem (in some form or other) from the 1988 remixed All the Way CD. The 1989 Capitol Collectors Series stems from the same tape transfer -- clearly not, for the entirety of the track, merely a dub of the 1988 CD file itself, as the the 1989 disc includes pre-take studio banter, although it is certainly possible that somebody transferred that dialogue and then spliced it onto the 1988 file during 1989 master assembly. Who knows? Interestingly(?), the 1989 CD is phase-reversed vis-a-vis the 1988, but is otherwise essentially identical, any tweaks, intentional or otherwise, being, to my ears, inconsequential. Here are the two waveforms (with the 1988 waveform phase-re-reversed by me for ease of visual comparison), 1988 on the left, 1989 on the right:
    Screen shot 2016-10-07 at 4.45.48 PM.png
    From there, we have the following:
    •1990 The Capitol Years - reuses the 1989 mastering, minus the chatter
    •1992 At the Movies - reuses the 1988 mastering
    •1995 Sinatra 80th - reuses the 1990 mastering
    •1996 Mastercard promotional CD - reuses the 1990 mastering
    •1997 Australian The Essential Frank Sinatra CD reuses THE CAPITOL YEARS, also, but with the channels reversed, putting the strings on the left. Cool! Either somebody goofed, or somebody had their thinking cap on, because the original mix and the 1988 mix have the channels backwards. This disc resolves that issue.

    There is one more outlier: The 1992 (?) UK 20 Golden Greats CD. This reuses the 1990 The Capitol Years mastering (or some raw transfer thereof), as have others, but they spread some sort of secret sauce over it, actually improving (IMO) an already impressive version.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2016
  4. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Re: Love Looks So Well on You

    On LP, this appeared on:
    Sinatra Sings...of Love and Things (stereo and mono)
    •UK My Funny Valentine (mono)
    •Australian The Rarities - Volume One (mono)

    Any others that I'm missing?
     
  5. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Re: HIGH HOPES in mono

    A couple of posts back, I rambled on about the mono mix, and I have to wonder: Why was this song, in particular, so hammered (compressed, in terms of dynamics) when the mono mix was created? I'm referring to the MIX, not any specific mastering.

    Most of the Capitol Sinatra 45s have pretty heavy limiting added during the CUTTING process of the 45s, but the mixes themselves typically are quite dynamic, as evidenced when the tracks appeared on mono LPs or on CD, but in the case of HIGH HOPES, it appears that the mix itself is very heavily compressed. Evidence? The 1982 Japanese The Hit Maker LP, 1984 Dutch All the Way LP, and 1989 Japanese All the Way: The Hit Collection CD, all of which offer "unfettered dynamics" on other tracks, offer essentially no dynamic improvements (less than one decibel RMS, which is negligible) on this particular track. The stereo mixes, meanwhile, are not smashed that way. In fact, the most dynamic mono version of the 11 releases I've checked is the dynamic equal of the LEAST dynamic of the 20 stereo releases I've checked. (This is comparing the 1984 DMM mono LP with the 1998 UK stereo CD, if you're curious. Side note: The mono version of 1968's The Sinatra Touch LP takes this already-smashed mix and adds another heavy-handed dose of smash atop the original. It's really awful!)

    Back to the compression on the original mono mix: Was it an effort, perhaps, to make the "bunch of kids" congeal a little better with the strings or something? :shrug: Whatever the reason, it's a shame it was done, as a well-made mono mix of this track could sound great, IMO, as it would avoid the problem of having the bunch of kids pushed way off to one side, as in the stereo mix.
     
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  6. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Continuing with HIGH HOPES in mono:

    I've got clips from 14 mono releases now posted here, on a page that is still under construction: Non-Album Tracks, 1959 »

    Most of these are pretty ragged, sonically speaking, as this mix is not exactly a high point (no pun intended) where Capitol mono mixes is concerned, but I would direct your attention to a few things worth listening to:

    •Original D1 45 - Yes, it's the original, compressed mono mix, but, to my ears, of all the versions I've heard OF THIS MIX (specifically), this one remains the one to beat in terms of tone. (Audio link)
    •The 1980 UK Screen Sinatra LP and the 1974 New Zealand His Twenty Greatest Hits LP are "mono," but not from the original mix. Rather, these are fold-downs from the original stereo mix. Sure, that's "audio heresy" in the minds of some, but in terms of raw sound quality characteristics, it's pretty good, and very different from the original mix, as it's uncompressed and, unlike with the stereo mix from which it originates, the "bunch of kids" are not pushed off to one side. (Audio link from 1980 LP)
    •From left field, we have an unofficial copyright-expiration release that, to my knowledge, originally appeared in 2012 at Amazon.co.uk, and is now on iTunes. It's titled "The Very Best of Songs for Children," and contains a fold-down that uses the 1988 digital stereo remix as a source. (Audio link)
    •The 2016 LP release pales by comparison to any of these, sad to say (audio link)

    Sorry to say something controversial, but where mono is concerned on this song, I'll take the better fold-downs over the original, poorly executed mono mix. o_O
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2016
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  7. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    All that compression makes the kids sound like they're really shouting. Maybe the idea was to beef them up more?
     
  8. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    That could be. I hadn't thought of that angle.
     
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  9. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Re: HIGH HOPES in stereo

    I've got six stereo LP clips posted, all using the original (backwards) stereo mix, but with the channels re-reversed (corrected) for release on the 1984 UK "Dell" clip that @bferr1 sent. (Thanks for sending that!)

    Best of these six LPs? Probably the 1983 MFSL LP. (Audio link)

    Scan down the page (past the mono clips), here: Non-Album Tracks, 1959 »
     
  10. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Re: HIGH HOPES on stereo CD

    Wrapping up sixteen stereo CD releases, five of which use the original stereo mix; nine of which use the 1988 remix; two of which use the 1995 remix.

    My thoughts:

    •For the original mix, the 1989 UK CDs are nicely mastered (Screen Sinatra audio here); the 2015 Ultimate Sinatra has excellent tone, to my ears, but it's very heavily compressed. The 1986 Australian and 1998 UK releases are compressed and not well mastered.
    •There are gobs of uses/re-uses/re-re-uses of the 1988 remix that originally appeared on the hard-to-find All the Way CD. Gotta say: While the balances are nice, and the dynamics are wide, the tone strikes me as being a little chilly/anemic. It's not bad, but I'm not ga-ga over it. (Audio from 1988 All the Way CD here.) That said, the remix was not merely "cloned," but actually remastered on the 1992 UK (and Canadian) CD, 20 Golden Greats, and the unique mastering on this disc is top-notch, I think, and is my overall TOP CHOICE for this song. (Audio clip here.)
    •The two releases of Robert Norberg's 1995 remix are processed to death.

    Much more here: Non-Album Tracks, 1959 »

    (Thanks to @rangerjohn and @Bob F for providing CD clips.)
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2016
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  11. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Moving next to LOVE LOOKS SO WELL ON YOU:

    Here's a song that "sat in the can" for three years (reminds me a bit of my older brother that way), with original mono and original stereo mixes that are quite different sounding from each other, with the original stereo mix being rather on the soupy side, pushing me pretty strongly into the mono camp. (The 1996 stereo remix is just gawdawful, to boot.)

    So....for me, it's an easy pick. My "top choice" is the 1984 Dutch DMM mono LP release. (Audio clip here.) The original USA mono releases are not far behind, in my book, and may even benefit from being a tad warmer. (Audio clip here.)

    The best stereo choice is probably the 1983 MFSL LP. (Audio clip here.)

    Thanks to @Bob F , @rangerjohn , and @bferr1 for sharing clips on this one. :)

    More samples and info down the page here: Non-Album Tracks, 1959 »
     
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  12. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    CALLING ALL OWNERS OF EARLY PRESSINGS OF THE ALL THE WAY LP....

    Re: High Hopes

    @stevelucille was kind enough to send along a couple of clips of stereo releases of High Hopes: 1.) An N4 All the Way LP; and 2.) An N1 The Great Years LP. Both are now added to the website, here, and The Great Years is in good condition and sounds okay (audio here). The N4 cut of the All the Way stereo LP is not in very good shape (as Steve admits), but it revealed something very surprising: That particular disk, cut in New York from a tape copy, not from the actual master reel, has the channel layout corrected (audio here), i.e. kids and strings on the left, NOT the typical "kids an strings on the right" situation -- which is wrong -- that is on most pressings. (The backward-ness of the stereo mixes for the All the Way stereo LP has been an ongoing topic around here for some time now.)

    So....Steve's N4 pressing, cut in NYC from a dub, has the strings and kids on the left, where they belong. @Arkoffs submitted stereo tracks from some other All the Way tracks from his D3 pressing, and the channels are backwards (strings on the right), as is typical for the All the Way album.

    If you have a USA-cut stereo ALL THE WAY LP, can you check your copy of HIGH HOPES and report back as to where the kids are in the mix? Left (rare, but "correct,") or right (common, but "backwards")? Please provide runout groove info (D6, N1, etc.) I'm curious as to whether "kids left" is typical for "N" copies, or was this a "one off" that happened either by mistake or by somebody taking it upon themselves to correct an obvious goof.

    Thanks! (And thanks to Steve for sharing the clips. He also sent along three mono clips that I will try to get to in the next few days.)

    We now have found three stereo releases of HIGH HOPES that "correct" the stereo image, putting the kids and strings on the left:
    •Steve's N4 All the Way LP
    @bferr1 's 1984 UK All the Way LP
    •The 1992 Australian CD, Essential Frank Sinatra

    The other 21 sampled stereo releases are all backwards in terms of stereo image.
     
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  13. Arkoffs

    Arkoffs Remote member

    Location:
    Right behind you
    Well, that is intriguing.
     
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  14. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Re: HIGH HOPES in mono:
    I've not got the three mono samples from @stevelucille posted here: Non-Album Tracks, 1959 »

    They are:
    •A D1 promo 45 with the Sinatra version on one side and the Jonah Jones version on the other. This was originally issued as a picture sleeve, as visible at 45cat.com
    [​IMG]
    •A D9 45
    •An N1 The Great Years mono LP

    Thanks, Steve! The samples are all available at the page linked above.
     
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  15. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    One more bump -- looking for owners of early stereo ALL THE WAY pressings. Somebody out there has early All the Way stereo LP pressings! See below:
     
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  16. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Matt, my N6 has the kids on the right. Both my vintage copies are N6...
     
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  17. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Thanks, Martin! So it seems that the N4 pressing from @stevelucille is an anomaly (with kids on the left), not "routine" for N pressings. Thanks!

    Anybody else?
     
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  18. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    My mono copy has them in the center.

    Is that joke dry enough?
     
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  19. bozburn

    bozburn Forum Resident

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA, US

    Same with me. Mine is an N6 #4.
     
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  20. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Try unplugging one speaker.
     
  21. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    As many of us here know, there's a new Record Store Day Sinatra 45 available:
    https://www.discogs.com/Frank-Sinatra-White-Christmas-The-Christmas-Waltz/release/9411479

    Thanks to a fellow member here, I got to hear the 45 au naturel (not cleaned up, not summed to mono, etc.) and there's good news and bad news.

    The bad news: Once again, Capitol/UMe appears to have taken a Robert Norberg digital CD mastering and cut it to vinyl, replete with "stereo widening" of an original mono recording. (Old-timers here may recall that the 2010 Jolly Christmas and the recent The Christmas Song Nat "King" Cole LPs were sourced from Norberg versions.)

    The good news: If you sum it to mono (as many will doing during a "needledrop" process), the "stereo widening" goes away, and the Norberg mastering does preserve/exploit the original dynamics of the recording -- something that original 45s definitely did not do.

    It's not going to cause your ears to bleed or anything, but it's a shame it was done this way.

    Screen shot 2016-12-06 at 7.40.17 AM.png
    Is "Italian" vinyl the new Corinthian Leather????
    Screen shot 2016-12-06 at 7.44.26 AM.png
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2016
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  22. jtaylor

    jtaylor Senior Member

    Location:
    RVA
    How long does Capitol/Universal intend to exploit the "Sinatra 100" imprint?
     
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  23. teag

    teag Forum Resident

    Location:
    Colorado
    If they want to release the music and do it well, I don't consider it exploiting. I don't care what they call it - if it sounds good.
     
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  24. jtaylor

    jtaylor Senior Member

    Location:
    RVA
    I think they are utilizing and/or benefiting from it, but I didn't necessarily mean that negatively, at least not in the way I think you interpreted "exploiting."

    But I agree with your point -- just let it sound good.
     
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  25. bferr1

    bferr1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    MA
    Hopefully until Sinatra 200. :)
     
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