Sinatra's Where Are You -- how wide are the grooves?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by CBackley, Apr 10, 2017.

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  1. CBackley

    CBackley Chairman of the Bored Thread Starter

    I have an odd question about Sinatra's album Where Are You (1957). How wide are the grooves? Is it old school mono groove territory, meant for a 1 mil stylus? Or can that record safely be played with a modern stereo stylus that's .7 mil elliptical?

    I've received differing opinions on whether or not a modern stereo stylus can safely play an old mono record without damaging either the vinyl or the stylus. The manufacturer of my stylus (Ortofon, for the 2M Red) said to avoid using it on old mono records, but anything from the late 50s through today is fine.

    My understanding is that many mono records cut after the invention of stereo were cut with stereo lathes, thus making .7 mil stylus okay to use.

    I just ordered a 1957 pressing of Where Are You. Am I fool to want this mono record? :) Does it have older, wider mono grooves? Or am I going to destroy something trying to play this thing?
     
  2. CBackley

    CBackley Chairman of the Bored Thread Starter

    @Bob F @MLutthans @MMM Do any of you have thoughts on this? I apologize for bringing into a silly discussion (well, monologue at this point). But I figured one of you might know.
     
  3. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Please listen to the audio posted here: Where Are You? - 1957
    Every sample that I posted from my own collection is transferred via a modern, non-spherical, stereo stylus. I suspect the ones that others shared are dubbed in the same fashion. You can listen for yourself.
     
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  4. empirelvr

    empirelvr "That's *just* the way it IS!" - Paul Anka

    Location:
    Virginia, USA
    A modern stereo stylus can play any microgroove disc. I think what Ortofon is saying is to not use it on non-microgroove discs like 78's or 16" transcription discs.

    Any 33 1/3 or 45RPM microgroove disc sold to the consumer since the LP and 45's introduction can be played back fine with a modern stereo stylus.
     
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  5. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

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  6. CBackley

    CBackley Chairman of the Bored Thread Starter

    Thanks, all. The Ortofon contact was specifically referring to mono records pressed after the invention of the LP but before the rollout of stereo. They said that the grooves were wider on those records, and that a modern stylus would scrape the bottom of those wider grooves. My income doesn't allow me to buy a replacement stylus, let alone a separate mono stylus, so the Ortofon email freaked me out.
     
  7. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Play away!
     
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  8. CBackley

    CBackley Chairman of the Bored Thread Starter

    Does anyone know what it would sound like if my stylus ended up scraping the bottom of grooves that are too wide?
     
  9. CBackley

    CBackley Chairman of the Bored Thread Starter

    I also have an original mono pressing of Sinatra & Jobim coming my way. I'm excited.
     
  10. CBackley

    CBackley Chairman of the Bored Thread Starter


    Here's what the Ortofon rep said: "Lastly, there is some concern about groove sizes versus stylus sizes. Most mono records from 1955 and before are coarse-groove records, and those absolutely require a 1 mil diamond, or your stylus will be swimming in the groove. This would lead to the diamond bottoming out and hitting the area at the bottom of the groove where there is no inscribed material. This could have a negative effect on the vinyl itself, and certainly it’s not good for the diamond as well."

    Does that sound accurate?
     
  11. CBackley

    CBackley Chairman of the Bored Thread Starter

    BTW, I also want to thank @Bob F @MMM @MLutthans and others for all the great Sinatra advice over the past several weeks. I've acquired several box sets and individual albums, and I've just enthralled by all the wonderful music I've added to my life. It's been great, and your advice (and past discussions I've dug up) have added tremendously to my enjoyment. I can't thank you enough!
     
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  12. empirelvr

    empirelvr "That's *just* the way it IS!" - Paul Anka

    Location:
    Virginia, USA
    No, it is not. In fact, it is wildly inaccurate to the point of being irresponsible. "Coarse Groove" describes what non-microgroove discs such as 78's and radio transcription discs are. The groove in an original Columbia 33 1/3RPM microgroove disc made in 1948 and RCA Victor's competing 45RPM format from the same time frame does not differ in any way from a true mono LP or 45 made and pressed in, say, 1965. And I talk from experience because I have a fairly large collection of such early discs and I have played many of them with any number of different modern stereo stylus sizes and shapes, including a Shibata, with absolutely no audible or physically negative results.

    ALL pre-1968 mono LP discs and mono 45's cut with a true mono cutterhead were optimized for use with a 1 mil stylus, and while they probably would sound best with such a size (and in my experience usually do,) you will not be "swimming in the groove" using a modern stereo conical, elliptical, or line contact stylus on such discs.
     
  13. CBackley

    CBackley Chairman of the Bored Thread Starter


    THANK YOU!
     
  14. Pelvis Ressley

    Pelvis Ressley Down in the Jungle Room

    Location:
    Capac, Michigan
    Sounds like Ortofon is trying to push their 2M Mono with scare tactics. Totally unnecessary. Play away. Just be sure to use a mono switch or a double-Y-cord when playing your mono records with a stereo setup.

    Using a double Y Cord for mono recordings
     
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  15. CBackley

    CBackley Chairman of the Bored Thread Starter


    Thanks! I bought an awesome mono switch from a fellow SH member.
     
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  16. CBackley

    CBackley Chairman of the Bored Thread Starter

    I got my record. It sounds decent overall, but there are some pops at several points. And I removed the record after encountering a skip near the end of side two. Hopefully I didn't kill my stereo stylus by playing an old mono record that was in less than fantastic condition.

    It's still cool having an original pressing, even if I only played it once. I'll need to pick up the recent MFSL vinyl reissue at some point.
     
  17. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Styli are not made of butter.
     
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  18. CBackley

    CBackley Chairman of the Bored Thread Starter

    I'm Minnesotan. It breaks my heart that they're not! :)
     
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  19. CBackley

    CBackley Chairman of the Bored Thread Starter

    Seriously though, @MLutthans , I read your praise of the MFSL reissue and ordered a copy. Your website is a treasure.
     
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