Sinatra / Capitol Sound Quality (and general discussion): Singles, Soundtracks, Etc.

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by MLutthans, Aug 10, 2013.

  1. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Probably one is from the East coast printing company, and the other from the West one.
     
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  2. Richard--W

    Richard--W Forum Resident

    Amazing, you guys ...
     
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  3. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Looking at the side two tracks that we've already reviewed in this thread:

    Witchcraft - May 20, 1957, from Pieter's LP - Audio clip here. LIke "All the Way," (the song, not the album) this mono track is cut on this LP from a "fake stereo" source, but one that sums to mono very well, and that summing, indeed, works pretty well here. The flavor is "warm and dark," but it works, I think. Yes, it's lacking high frequency extension, but I enjoy it. Maybe not a "top choice," but "just fine" in it's own way, and very pleasant.

    Sleep Warm - September 11, 1958, from Pieter's LP - Audio clip here. This is a fold-down to mono from the stereo mix, and, furthermore, it's a fold down from a stereo mix made from one of those "3 mics, for stereo only" recordings, whereas the true mono mix was mixed live via a multi-mic set-up, straight to mono. There are some balanced differences that are evident, especially a more-prominent vocal part, and flutes that are more prominent in this fold-down than in the true mono mix. That said, it's still pleasant, and unless somebody is A/B'ing things, it'll come across as being okay, probably. ("Wrong," admittedly, but still "okay," at least in regular listening.)

    This Was My Love - May 14, 1959, from Pieter's LP - Audio clip here. In careful listening, the heavier reverb that is evident on the original stereo mix, from which this LP is folded down, is noticeable, but in regular listening, this song, too, is "quite pleasant."

    So....yes, the album is a "fold down," which is technically "wrong, wrong, wrong," but the LP is nicely mastered, and the true mono mixes for some of these songs are quite poor (and/or poorly presented on many releases), so again, I'll just add that this particular LP is a very nice sounding "mono" listen, regardless of "technical incorrectness." It sounds nice to me, despite the "technical issue" and a few little bugaboos along the way.

    The remaining songs from this LP will be presented as we get to them as we continue the 1959 and 1960 recordings.

    If you're a big-time "mono LP person," have a listen to the clips, and consider picking one of these up if you like what you hear. :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2017
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  4. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Looking at TALK TO ME stereo releases, I have:

    •N1 THE GREAT YEARS LP - thanks @stevelucille
    •MFSL LP
    •Green-label SN-series LP (cut by Gene Thompson)
    •The Works LP
    •1984 UK "Dell" LP - thanks @bferr1
    •Complete Capitol Singles CD - thanks @rangerjohn
    •1988 All the Way CD
    •1998 UK boxed set All the Way CD

    Mono versions I have for comparison:
    •D3, N3#2, and 2016 All the Way LPs
    •D3 45 (a disk that is cut at very high levels, by the way)
    •Australian Mr. Success LP
    •Japanese The Hit Maker LP
    •1968 The Sinatra Touch LP
    •1966 World Record Club UK All the Way LP - thanks @Pieter Kozak
    •1984 Dutch DMM All the Way mono LP
    •Japanese The Hit Collection CD

    Any digital versions I'm missing? Anybody have anything (mono or stereo) they'd like to add? Maybe a clean-ish stereo original All the Way LP clip? Mono The Great Years? Thanks!
     
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  5. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Continuing with TALK TO ME: Lest anybody think that "loud mastering" is a new phenomenon, check out the difference between the most-dynamic mono release of TALK TO ME, from the c. 1982 Australian LP, Mr. Success, and the least-dynamic mono release, from the 1968 The Sinatra Touch 6-LP set:
    [​IMG]
    That's what a difference of 7.2 dB RMS looks like.

    "Scream at me, scream at me, scream at me....."
     
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  6. mahanusafa02

    mahanusafa02 Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    Opportunistically, I just found a "Talk to Me" UK 45 in a charity shop today, quite noisy (dirty?), but without groove damage. Once ripped, ClickRepair has done a halfway decent job with it, but for the cheap price I found it for, I'm going to wood-glue it and rip it again in a couple days to send to @MLutthans. Looking at the waveform, though, it's quite dynamic, such as I'm not used to seeing on 45s. FWIW, my TT Dynamic Range Meter calls it DR11.
     
  7. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Thanks! It's odd how widely the dynamics can vary on 45s. We've even hit a couple of titles where the "D"-cut 45 will be smashed to death while the "N"-cut 45 will be quite dynamic, or vice-versa.
     
  8. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    I believe these may be previously unknown take numbers?????
    s-l1600-121.jpg s-l1600-120.jpg
     
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  9. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Continuing with "Talk to Me" from the May 14, 1959 session, a few little interesting(?), trivial things:

    1. On the original stereo mix, there is an insert piece that runs for about 11 seconds, from the start of the violin solo through the words "Your magical kiss," but it does not appear to be an insert that was done to splice two takes together. Rather, my guess is that when the mix was made, a cough by Sinatra, on-mic, was not mixed out, and rather than remix the whole song from scratch, just those few seconds were remixed, minus the cough, and spliced in. On the 1988 All the Way CD, which is a full-on remix (for the ten stereo tracks), the cough is there in all its glory (oops), and the audible tape splices are not, but the musical content appears to be identical. (That 1988 remix is reused in the 1996 Complete Capitol Singles set.)

    2. When the mono mix was made, the cough was clearly and effectively "dodged," with no audible tape splices, but the lack of audible splices on the mono mix makes it even easier to spot "mono" versions that are actually fold-downs from the stereo mix, those being:
    •The 1966 mono All the Way LP from the UK World Record Club
    •The 1982 Japanese The Hit Maker LP
    •The 1989 Japanese The Hit Collection CD
    (The appearance of a fold-down on those last two is somewhat surprising.)

    3. The 1984 Dutch DMM All the Way mono LP has a very glaring defect on this track. During the words "all aflame," the tape reel drags (as if somebody brushed their forearm against the reel or something), causing the pitch to drop abruptly for a second or so.

    4. The only stereo release (of the eight sampled) to have the left/right layout correct is the 1984 UK "Dell" All the Way LP. All others are backwards, with the violin solo on the right, where it does not belong.

    Clips to follow when time allows. :)
     
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  10. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    11 audio clips from mono releases of TALK TO ME are posted down the page here: Non-Album Tracks, 1959

    Eight use the original mono mix; three are fold-downs to mono from the original stereo mix. Frankly, I think the original mono mix a little soupy, so I'll take the fold-downs over the real deal, which I know is heretical thinking. (Sorry, mom.)

    Here's a clip from one of the better "true mono mix" releases, the "Mr. Success" LP from Australia:
    http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/1959_-_SinglesEtc44_files/TalkToMeClipMonoMrSuccess-GAIN_01.mp3
    (Pardon the bit of sibilance on this used LP)

    A clip from one of the better-sounding fold-downs, the 1996 UK World Record Club "All the Way" mono LP:
    http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/1959_-_SinglesEtc44_files/TalkToMeClipMonoWRCPieter-GAIN_01.mp3
    (Thanks to @Pieter Kozak for the clip.)

    I'll take the latter.

    Stereo clips to follow in the days ahead.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2017
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  11. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Wrapping up TALK TO ME:

    Stereo clips are now posted. My top choice, despite its stereo channels being reversed, is the 1988 CD remix. Here's a clip, complete with the audible cough that was mentioned two posts back: http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/1959_-_SinglesEtc44_files/TalkToMeClipAllTheWay88CD-GAIN_01.wav

    Second-place choices, which use the original stereo mix, complete with reversed channels, and that 11-second tape splice mentioned two posts back:
    •MFSL LP, a little too(?) airy: http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/1959_-_SinglesEtc44_files/TalkToMeClipMFSLRicker-GAIN_01.wav
    •THE GREAT YEARS LP, (thanks @stevelucille): http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/1959_-_SinglesEtc44_files/TalkToMeClipGreatYearsN1Stereo-GAIN_01.wav

    I think that all three of the above are excellent.

    More clips and info here: Non-Album Tracks, 1959

    It appears that the only stereo release to ever have the proper left/right orientation is the 1984 UK "Dell" LP; the others are all backwards, with strings on the right (as is common for releases that use the 1961 stereo mix for "All The Way" LP tracks).

    Comments from the site:
    Screen shot 2017-05-04 at 4.05.46 PM.png
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2017
  12. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    "Talk to me"
    (Dean) " I don wanna!"
    "Talk to me"
    (Dean) " I don wanna!"
    "Talk to me"
    (Lawford) "FOR HEAVEN SSSSSSAKES SSSSSSOMEONE TALK TO HIM!!!!!!"
     
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  13. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Next up: Tracks from Can-Can.

    I've got the Select Cole Porter CD from 1991, and the 1984 (?) UK stereo soundtrack reissue LP, D6/D5 mono LP, In Hollywood CD set, the Australian CD, UK Great Films & Shows CD, the dvd. I think that's about it.

    If anybody has anything they can submit, I'd appreciate it. Was there a USA CD, for instance? Any of the many, many stereo LPs out there? (Lots of German editions, it seems.) Anybody have this:
    s-l1600-138.jpg
    ??

    Thanks in advance!
     
  14. mahanusafa02

    mahanusafa02 Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    I've got a UK mono 2N/1N LP and a US stereo D3/D4 9 o'clock spires LP. I'm guessing the stereo will be more worthy of contribution, but maybe the mono too...were any UK Capitol mono LPs of this era fold downs? Or was that only later (beginning c. 1962)?
     
  15. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    I am not sure. Anybody? The UK Come Swing with Me appears to be a fold-down, and sounds fantastic vis-a-vis the US mono.
     
  16. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    Yes: CDP 7 91248 2 (℗ © 1989). "Digitally remastered by Bob Norberg at Capitol Recording Studios."

    It's the full original soundtrack album. Went OOP very quickly. I haven't listened in ages, but as bad as it may (?) be, I always felt it was a major improvement over the version in the Australian 3-CD set. Just yell for what you want.

    [​IMG]
     
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  17. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    SinatraCan-CanCarolinaTheatre.jpg
     
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  18. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Going way back, here are two full-page ads for Sinatra singles:

    s-l1600-144.jpg
    s-l1600-145.jpg
    The latter one features 2-color printing, and is framed (as shown on Ebay).
     
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  19. wvk3

    wvk3 Senior Member

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    I have this German CD. I've always assumed it's the same mastering as the American one, but who knows? Happy to send anything you'd like.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2017
  20. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    As I recall, the studio that did not really cooperate on the In Hollywood set was 20th Century-Fox. That's a shame, as their multitracks appear to be in good shape, and with excellent sound quality. Here's a clip of It's All Right with Me from the "isolated score" track on the DVD, and you can just make out Frank singing in the background, faintly captured by the orchestral mics.

    Audio clip: https://app.box.com/s/3hixmdbw1i91n4g8d8u32rr9ox53mx5v
     
  21. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Two thoughts about this sheet music. 1.) The sure could have used a more contemporary photo: s-l1600-166.jpg
    and 2.) I never realized this song had a "verse" at the intro:
    s-l1600-167.jpg
     
  22. Ronald Sarbo

    Ronald Sarbo Forum Resident

    Location:
    NY, NY, USA
    Tony Bennett recorded it with the verse on "Sings A String Of Harold Arlen".
     
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  23. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
     
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  24. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Here's a photo I had not seen before. It can be from no later than April, 1954. Looks like Capitol.
    SinatraPreMay1954.jpg
    Down Beat magazine, May 4, 1954. The latest possible session is "Swing Easy" session #2, April 19, 1954.

    That tie looks familiar, maybe from other photos that have been posted here. Any ideas?

    EDIT: Didn't take long to find this one! From Capitol session #1, April 2, 1953, as posted on page one of this thread by @Bob F :
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
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  25. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Did Sinatra ever comment about "Lean Baby?" After grousing about the gimmicky songs he was having to sing over at Columbia, surely he realized that song #1 at Capitol was a far cry from Cole Porter.
     

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