Tube warm up complicating my listening

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by ghost rider, Aug 19, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. VinylRob

    VinylRob Forum Resident

    Interesting. I might add that I have read Jonathan Carr of Lyra commenting at one time that he recommended an incandescent light be employed next to turntables to help keep the mechanical inner workings of phono cartridges on the warm side of room temperature. I have followed this guideline for years and feel it to be supportive to good analogue sound.

    I would imagine that it primarily effects compliance of the former or suspension.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2017
  2. Warren Jarrett

    Warren Jarrett Audio Note (UK) dealer in SoCal/LA-OC In Memoriam

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    And I just enjoy the whole process of sounding better, the longer I listen. It doesn't frustrate me at all. Plus, I enjoy (and am thankful about) my capability to HEAR the difference. Obviously most people wouldn't even care about (or notice) it. Its a hobby to care, and a gift to be sensitive to it.

    All systems I have heard cold, just turned on, sound close enough to warmed-up that the music is still enjoyable. Anticipating the warmed-up sound and worrying about why it is not there yet is simply mentally self-destructive.

    Enjoy the audio system for what it is (and is not), and save the worrying for important things, like money, politics, family relationships, and getting to work on time.
     
  3. VinylRob

    VinylRob Forum Resident

    Dear WJ, I wish I could "like" your latest comment one thousand times. :)

    I could not agree more. Well said.
     
  4. Warren Jarrett

    Warren Jarrett Audio Note (UK) dealer in SoCal/LA-OC In Memoriam

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    Steve hears the warm-up improvement, too, and is not frustrated about it. I believe his comment here is about no sense in making an issue of it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2017
    Tullman likes this.
  5. mkane

    mkane Strictly Analog

    Location:
    Auburn CA
    Warmed or not. Music is better than no music.
     
    Defdum&blind likes this.
  6. BIGGER Dave

    BIGGER Dave Forum Resident

    Not that I've noticed. Although I always thought my playing got better after about an hour. Maybe it was actually the tubes warming up all along! ;)
     
    Tullman likes this.
  7. Warren Jarrett

    Warren Jarrett Audio Note (UK) dealer in SoCal/LA-OC In Memoriam

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    I play a couple of musical instruments too, and definitely humans warm-up even more dramatically than tube equipment.

    Which reminds me of another aspect I would like to add to this discussion. This phenomenon of tube equipment sounding better after some on-time may not be only the power tubes themselves physically getting warm. It may be the properties of electron motion within the tubes somehow change... the transformers, with their miles of turned wire, might very slowly change their flow of current... it may be some other factors that nobody truly understands. Or, it may be (as others have suggested) just our perception and concentration warming-up, although I don't agree this is the major factor.
     
  8. VinylRob

    VinylRob Forum Resident

    I would be more inclined to consider it is our perception that is, at least, partially at work here if it were not for my ears being so accurate in perceiving a warm up state. Upon entering a friends home, and from the kitchen door, toward the back of the house, some thirty feet from his living/listening room, I can consistently tell without even entering the room. Can't remember the last time I was not spot on. It's just tonally obvious. I often call out, so Ron, you've just turned those on haven't you? Or you've had those on for several hours now, right? He just shakes his head and laughs at the unexplainable... His room, his OTLs, his horns, are just that revealing and I know his kit. :) Love this pass time, warmed up yet or not!
     
  9. EddieVanHalen

    EddieVanHalen Forum Resident

    I have a Yaqin Phono preamp,a Pioneer SC LX-76 A/V receiver and a Goldring GR-1 TT with a Denon DL-110 cart. Before I play some LP's (i can play 3 or 4 in a row) I switch everything on 20 or 30 minutes before my music listenning session starts, it doesn't take longer than that to have everything warm up, even the owner's manual of the Pioneer receiver states that switching the receiver on with some minutes in advance to warm it up improves sound quality, and it has Class D amplification. To warm it up I select Analog/TT on the receiver and increase volume to -8 as the hiss or noise coming from the tube Phono preamp is enough to warm up the Class D amps on the receiver. If Class D amps get no signal they don't get warm.
     
  10. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    Is Ralph on this forum? I know if I asked Vlad Lamm he would say, 'varm up amps minimum 45 minute. Check bias settings then vith Fluke.' Ralph could easily provide a technical explanation for why this is so.
    I've owned these amps since around 2006. Their behavior is consistent, and as I recall with every other tube amp I've owned, they sounded better after they were warmed up.
    There was an essay by the guy who owned Sear Sound some years ago about the trade-off of keeping tube equipment on all the time. I can try to find and post it. Implicit, if not explicit, in the essay was the notion that the gear sounded better when it was warmed up. (I believe the same is true of solid state). Sear Sound is a NY studio that hung tough during the Protools years with analog and tube gear, and whose fortunes were revived when big name artists began to use it for sweetening their recordings, if not doing them from the get-go. I can try to find the paper if needed. OMWTD (On My Way To Dinner). :)
     
    VinylRob likes this.
  11. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    Especially waiting for the music server to "boot up", "shut down" and "re-boot" as required. Boot up is about the same time as tube warm up. Technology- go figure.
     
  12. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    wow, that's taking things to a new level. sounds like you would want Rogue to add a fast warm-up thermostat!
     
  13. ghost rider

    ghost rider Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bentonville AR
    This thread and all the posts have been interesting altho seems to have taken a life of it's own. The only thing I'm fustrated about is not having enough time in the day to listen to music. I don't even have enough time to adequately respond to this thread.


    getting tube gear and especially the Rogue power amp simply was not practical. We perhaps are less fortunate that others here and have a small house we paid it off last year and are staying here till I retire. Then we will buy a bigger house in a different state, Spokane Washington is looking good right now. For now I have to make the best of this house.
    A technical support engineer at Rogue told me not to get above 120 degrees. I have no choice but to place this amp on a open shelf I might be able to run it without a fan but I think I will age it much faster.

    It's just that like tonight I have to go to work and by the time it starts sounding really good I have to go to bed. So tonight I never even turned it on.

    I was warned on this thread that placing this amp on a shelf would cause it to burn up. I figured a way to make it work. Like most things that aren't perfect I come up with a work around.



    Not sure of your point.
     
  14. inperson

    inperson Senior Member

    Location:
    Ohio
    I know what you're saying and I feel that way too sometimes but you gotta tell yourself "don't be a psycho" just turn it on and listen or think about getting a solid state amp to enjoy for your short sessions.
     
    martinb4, Ninja Bomber and billnunan like this.
  15. jea48

    jea48 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Midwest, USA
    ghost rider,

    From the owner manual of a 100 WPC Rogue power amp.


    Amplifier Location:
    The Stereo 100 depends on natural convection flow patterns for proper cooling.
    To ensure proper cooling, the unit should be located in a position so that the
    airflow is not impeded. The unit should not be placed in a fully enclosed shelf,
    and should have a minimum of 8 inches of free space above it, and 6 inches of
    free space on either side.

    WARNING
    The ventilation should not be impeded by covering the ventilation openings
    with items, such as newspapers, table cloths, curtains, etc.
    No naked flame source such as candles should be placed on the Pharaoh.
    The Pharaoh should not be exposed to dripping or splashing and no objects
    filled with liquids such as vases or goldfish bowls should be placed on top of the Pharaoh



    You say you have the power amp setting on a shelf?
    Do you have at least 8" of free air space above the top of the amp?
    Do you have at least 6" of free air space on either side of the amp?

    Though the manual doesn't say anything about under the amp and the shelf
    usually there will be vent holes in the bottom of an amplifier for the cooler air to enter from the bottom and the warmer-hotter air to exit through the top. So never put anything in the space between the feet of the amp and the shelf it sits on.

    You should not need a fan blowing on the amp if you are meeting the bare minimum space requirement in the owner manual.

    You said you were told by a Rogue tech the temp on the top the amp should not exceed 120 degrees. 120 degrees C ? That would be 248 degrees F.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2017
    vintage_tube likes this.
  16. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    With all due respect, not having heard this amp before, if it only starts sounding good after a long time of warming up, perhaps you should change amps. It should sound damn good after three minutes.
     
  17. vintage_tube

    vintage_tube Enjoying Life & Music

    Location:
    East Coast
    You have 4 KT120 Supertubes (based on the KT88's) and it should be warm and ready to deliver within minutes. If you have it in a congested shelving arrangement -- take the darn top off of it -- and try to comply with Rogues' recommendations for placement.

    I do see a reviewer in a mag article stated he placed it under his coffee table as no other place to put it & added a fan (Rogue Audio Stereo 100 Power Amplifier | 10 Audio ) for cooling. His thick coffee table top got warm to the touch.

    Therefore, not seeing this amp, but reading the article, those KT120's will get above 120 degrees I'm afraid --

    Ever cook eggs on Jolida EL34 tubed amps. I have -- they do turn into scrambled eggs.

    Best Sir,

    Bob
     
  18. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    FWIW, not having anything to do with warm-up time, but fan cooling, this company supplied an array of fans that I integrated into the massive silencer box I had built to quiet my 1/2 hp air compressor- the one used to drive my air bearing tonearm: AC Infinity They make a variety of products in different configurations that have thermal probes, are well finished, and in my estimation pretty cheap for the quality.
    I've used far more elaborate and costly fan/controller systems for rack mounted systems- these do the trick, look better and are much cheaper.
     
    Shawn and ghost rider like this.
  19. Encore

    Encore Forum Resident

    And maybe find a modus operandi that takes the constant decision-making out of the equation. I don't know your working hours but most days I simply turn on my gear when I get home from work and then turn it off when I know for sure that I'm done listening for the day. On the average, I find the time to do enough listening each day that it justifies this turn on/off schedule. Turning the gear off may still elicit a bit of "should I or shouldn't I?", but it's manageable.
     
    Tullman and VinylRob like this.
  20. VinylRob

    VinylRob Forum Resident

    Don't think Ralph frequents these parts, nor J. Carr, though I believe Ralph still monitors A2's OTL forum, and J. Carr has been very open and responsive in the past on A'gon.

    Ralph and I have spoke on numerous occasions throughout the years, on the phone and at shows, and like Vlad, he is always knowledgeable and most helpful. His response in the past was, flip them (Atma-Sphere amps) on stand-by for like five minutes, and then go ahead and power up and enjoy the music. Oh yeah, they will sweeten up as they warm up!

    *And on a completely different though perhaps related (and seemingly controversial by some) subject, power tube burn-in. RK has recommended putting my Svetlana 6H13C =C= (6AS7G) power tubes on stand-by for 48 hours to burn them in first before playing music, to prolong their ultimate life-span. Seems to also help. So again... imho like in so many things we enjoy, heat changes everything!
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
  21. RiCat

    RiCat Forum Resident

    Location:
    CT, USA
    I get it for tube users that warmup changes the sound. For SS users I just do not know? What is there to warm up. Almost from the first, the temp. at the transistor/heat sink junctions goes up proportional to load. As the heat sinks saturate and start to radiate the temps. are supposed to stabilize into the operating range (air circulation and venting dependent). This all happens very fast (relative) in SS. My experience with my Bryston 4BSSTĀ² is no change in sound at any temp. On the Preamp side temps. make no difference as the preamp has an external power supply and generates no heat.
     
  22. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    In my experience, solid state gear takes longer to fully warm up than tube gear. Best to leave on what you can all the time. I leave my SS amp in "standby" always.

    Cold and unlovely at turn on, gradually getting better until two days later, solid state perfection. I ain't kidding, folks.
     
    Manimal likes this.
  23. RiCat

    RiCat Forum Resident

    Location:
    CT, USA
    I appreciate your experience Steve. I suspect my age, hearing acuity and playback chain masks a lot.
     
  24. wwright

    wwright Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco, CA.
    I've had the same experience as well. Things really open up after an hour or two.

    Never been fully clear why that's the case - the tubes are biased correctly.
     
  25. Doug Walton

    Doug Walton Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    WOW - no kidding. I guess it's gonna now be standby mode ON always for me now.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

molar-endocrine