Grateful Dead Dave's Picks 2017 Subscription Thread

Anyone who can put something into Audacity can compare Playing in the Band from CM's release with this new one.
That's the song I compared. One would not only look at the waveform but also the spectral views and the frequency analysis. Most importantly the frequency analysis.

It's obvious to see that it's the same recording source. And you can see the big boost to the low end that has been applied.
And you can see on the original how the low end is lacking. The mids and the upper frequencies are pretty much identical on the two sources.
That low end boost starts down around 28 hZ and goes up to around 100 hZ.

And with some practice one could add the low end boost to CM's release and have it 'looking' and sounding like this new one. Kinda.

Jeff Norman aint using Audacity and he's got access to some really nice plug-ins to do that low end boost with.

Also when checking this out you can see that some compression has very tastefully been applied.

 

Simply measuring the circumference of the tree, before chopping it down...

 

And one more example of why this is the best GD discussion I’ve ever found on the web

Thanks for writing and sharing

 

I was reading some of the comments on the Dave's 24 page on Dead.net and some of the folks are actually praising the sub-sonic bass processing. Someone stated:

I am also totally taken aback by how awesome this show sounds, but most notably, Phil's Bass. There is definitely something going on here, especially in the lower registers. I was playing this pretty loud most of the weekend on the Big Boy stereo with the sub optimally set to envelop his outputs....all I can say is that it sounds like there is almost a slight synthesizer sound emanating from those lower and mid-range rumbles. It almost adds another tonal quality to his notes. It sounds amazing in the context of everyone else playing; so much to this fact that after I shut it off, I was still hearing those Phil tones ruminating in my head (usually it's something else like a lyric or a particular Jerry passage that sticks with me immediately). I really do love whatever addition this is, which has made this release stand out above many others just for the sheer sonic bliss that is churned out.

So let me get this straight: he admits that Phil's bass has been processed to sound "like a synthesizer" and that he "really loves" the effect? Yuck. Here's the thing. I LOVE synthesizers. I own several and love the textures and sounds they bring to music. However, do I want Phil's bass guitar to be tweaked so that it sounds more like a synth with a deep, rumbly, sub-sonic ghost note? NO. NO. NO. The guy says "it almost adds another tonal quality to his notes". What he calls "tonal quality" we have called an "octave effect". All I know is that it is annoying to hear and I wish that I could un-hear it.

Please, Jeff, be reasonable. Don't listen to the guy above. Most of us fans want Phil's sound to be natural and not enhanced. Thank you.

 

Touch Heads. ( )

 

Someone else on the Dead.net comment section stated:

I do a lot of listening on headphones, and the first thing I noticed, is that there is this ever-present bassy, subsonic rumble underneath the mix. It subsudes a little if I turn the bass way down on my EQ. I can't really notice it when I listen through the regular family room or car stereo, but it's pretty obvious on headphones.

Another user states:

Phil seems to have an effect on his bass... sounds like either a slight delay/echo thingy or perhaps a harmonizer.... he's got some effect there... I particularly hear it in the front end of set 1. Can anyone speak intelligently on this topic?

OK so obviously everyone else noticed the bass tone as well! LOL. One additional comment is that to me the bass almost sounds like an organ, in that it isn't acting like a percussion instrument (PLUCK > slow decay...). Instead, it sounds more like an organ, where he hits the note and it maintains the tone/volume until the note is released - not much decay after the initial attack of the note. Maybe a sustain pedal, or a compressor??? I'm a guitar player so I don't know wheat effects bass players use...

So, obviously, it's not just Archtop, CR, and a few others of us on this forum that can hear the rumbling bass effect. We are not just "imagining" it. Plus Jeff himself admitted that he may have overdone the bass boost.

All we are saying is that we would prefer Phil's bass to sound like a bass guitar - not a synth or organ.

 

This Dave's Picks has gotten more analysis than the Zapruder film.

 

You muck with Phil's bass sound and that's what happens.

 

If we are to be named by the song that made us fans, then I shall be forever known as a Loser Head.

 

"Devotion" Head here.

...as in The Golden Road to Unlimited...

 

Just got my copy today and won't be able to listen for a day or two. I haven't read any of the comments on this release's SQ yet -- I'm working my way backwards on this thread -- but this one caught my eye and is NOT encouraging. I guess it's a fine line between tweaking the EQ to make the bass sound natural or "live", and actually altering the character of the instrument. Not octave doubling per se? What does that even mean? I guess what I'm trying to say is that I am OK with the "extra bottom" part (EQ is part of the mastering process, and in the right hands shouldn't be a problem at all), but I have a serious problem with anything resembling octave doubling, "per se" or not "per se". I don't want Phil's bass to sound like a synth, unless that's exactly what Phil wanted it to sound like in the room that night. FWIW, I enjoy the mastering on most of JN's work, other than the unnecessary compression. (I think he goes a little overboard on it sometimes, and most of this stuff would sound so much better without it. I mean, what's the point? It's not like they're trying to compete with the latest Justin Bieber track on the radio. What is that extra 3db or whatever going to accomplish exactly?)

 

I was streaming GDradio.net on my Sonos system this weekend and they were playing the latest Dave’s Picks and the bass boost was pretty noticeable on there. I’m curious to hear it on my big rig.

I’m not a purist, I mean Europe 72 is what hooked me - how can I be?

 

Per @bmoregnr, Norman himself posted elsewhere that he tried something new with the bass, and would be curious as to what people thought of it. That's what some folks including me have been doing, and I think we are doing so respectfully - at least that is my intent, as I genuinely appreciate his work overall. I suspect whatever he did was limited to affecting only certain frequencies - as that is the only possible way I can think of affecting only one instrument this way withou being able to change the mix. Someone upthreead said they thought they heard it on the piano a bit too, which is possible if Keith hit lower keys at the same time the effect was being used on Phil's bass. This is all speculation on my part, of course.

 

Obviously, I should refrain from making jokes about vocations.

Myself, I am a Terrapin Station > Playing In The Band Head, courtesy of 6 May 1978- University of Vermont, Burlington.

 

I've avoided this thread since Sunday afternoon when the word "speculation" was used many times. I realize that I've over-stated my position in a few posts, but generally I've been genuinely curious as to what was actually done and I posted in a subjective, questioning fashion. I've listened very closely to this release on headphones (as I normally listen to music) and I hear frequencies in Phil's bass parts that a standard four-string bass is incapable of producing without some form of effect pedal or electronic mods. I also hear a distinct "octave doubling" sound on many of the notes, but there are times when I only hear the octave below (see Black Peter at 0:13, whereas the riff from 0:09-0:12 has a clear octave doubling sound). I realize that Phil's "Big Brown" had extensive electronic modifications, but an octave below mod has never been brought up, and this would be a simple answer to the issue at hand. But we've never been given this explanation, so I can only assume that this was not part of the mods. Analysis of the archive tape of this show suggests no such modification.

No matter. I'm very pleased that Jeffrey was willing to respond and even be a bit self-deprecating in doing so. As I should be now, and I am. I also want to make clear that I have nothing but the utmost respect for the work that Jeffrey Norman has done on GoGD recordings. I don't really need an answer to any of this, but I did open the can of worms, and now I would like to shut it, if y'all would be willing to do so. Just as long as this technique is not the norm going forward.

 

One of those 24 knobs was turned to 11. Lols.

 

I don’t think you overstated anything. It’s been a fascinating conversation (to me) and we even ended up with a response from Jeffrey Norman, how cool is that?

It’s a discussion forum. I skip over the conversations that don’t interest me.

 

This is the key. I respect the reasoning behind why Jeff wanted to give Phil a boost. He sounded anemic in the mix. Got it. I'm just surprised that the odd octave effect was either not noticed by him or assumed that the benefits out-weighed the strangeness of the effect. I guess it must've "passed the sniff test" with Dave and everybody at GDM/Rhino, because they pressed and put the thing out how it is.

Maybe the deep, sub-bass sounds good on earbuds?

 

I appreciate the sentiment, but I would consider this post by me to be over-stating (at least in the context of what Jeffrey emailed and was posted earlier):

Grateful Dead Dave's Picks 2017 Subscription Thread

 

Well, it certainly sounds like Jeff Norman used an octave doubling effect to achieve this sound. I mean, sure, we don't know his actual gear and it's all guessing, but that's what it sounds like.

So, I don't think your post was "overstated" at all...

Plus, in his email, he said that there wasn't a doubling done "per se", so interpret that how you will.

 

The first thing I noticed with this release was actually the deep punch of the kick drum, which usually sounds unnaturally thin and distant on Bear's recordings, presumably due to his microphone placement. To me, it sounds a little bit blurred, if that makes any sense, but that's because what's being boosted was inadequately recorded in the first place by Bear. The overall frequency balance is improved, which is nice, but doing so sometimes reveals the inadequacy of the original recording.

I guess it doesn't bother me too much because Bear's recordings didn't always sound natural anyway. I'm glad we got answers, too, so thanks, Jeffrey Norman!

 

Yeah, I have no idea what per se really means in this context. I do think I overstated my position because I posted an absolute certainty in a couple of posts when I should have posted a subjective conjecture.

 

Deal (REALLY like Fillmore West closing show version with two Jerry solos). Actually it happened a lot earlier than that, and it may have been a cover song, if that counts...

 

Bobby is pretty loud on the DaP 11 show from November '72 as well (he had a great night though).

 

It's one helluva time to be a Dead Head!