Bob Dylan – Bootleg Series Vol. 14: More Blood, More Tracks (2 Nov 2018)*

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Dave Gilmour's Cat, Nov 2, 2016.

  1. Bink

    Bink Forum Resident

    Good points. Could it also be that any copyright extension releases are dependent upon what is thought to circulate amongst collectors? As far as I can gather the JWH outtakes have not circulated so as far as Bob Inc is concerned these do not need to be released.

    I know some people are hopeful of a set with all the Rolling Thunder concerts as they did with 1966. If indeed Bob Inc does give up on copyright extension releases then presumably this release would also be unlikely.

    It would be interesting if one of the big acts did actually challenge the 50 year rule in a court of law. For example, The Beatles don't seem to have put so much effort into extending the copyright on their outtakes. So if someone managed to get hold of Revolver outtakes and released them I wonder what The Beatles would do about it!
     
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  2. DeeThomaz

    DeeThomaz Senior Member

    Location:
    In The Felony Room
    After reading Heylin's new book, I'm increasingly drawn to the idea of a Bootleg Series set focused on the Rundown Years (perhaps married to Live 1978 revisit). A BOOT and/or RTR set seems like it should have precedence (particularly if Scorsese finishes his film-- that's the hold up, right?), but this might be the next best concept. Then again, Infidels keeps nagging at me....
     
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  3. Percy Song

    Percy Song A Hoity-Toity, High-End Client

    Thousands of people have dozens of Revolver outtakes but no one has had the bottle to release them officially. As Sean has implied, Apple/Beatles Inc use the "We'll see you in court" approach, it seems. Bob Inc. may well be thinking of taking that approach with the JWH outtakes which certainly don't circulate freely. But are they really so sure that they haven't escaped?
     
  4. Silas Letort

    Silas Letort New Member

    Indeed, but considering how long and widespread that session has circulated, few of us who will buy it will be unaware of the state of the contents. And in this case the atmos and laziness of the performances is what makes it interesting. Especially in contrast with the bombastic seriousness of the recent Bootleg Series release. More so if they include the duet on Don't Think Twice/Understand Your Man - that thing could be as incredibly fun as it may be peculiar. And the sound quality will be superb judging by the Nashville Skyline SACD sound.

    Tastes wary, but the Witmark Demos sure wasn't everybody's favorite either, yet that didn't stop Sony from releasing it. And the Dylan/Cash session is - I think - much more interesting than that one. Anyway, it will be surprising if it isn't released in some from in two years time.
     
  5. revolution_vanderbilt

    revolution_vanderbilt Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York
    That was certainly the least relevatory Bootleg Series installment. Interesting to hear once, but I don't really go back to it at all.
     
  6. Bink

    Bink Forum Resident

    Another point about the 50th anniversary copyright extension releases - by releasing tracks on a very very limited basis as they did with 1962, 63 and 64 means it keeps those recordings off the shelves.

    The average music buyer cannot easily purchase those 50th anniversary recordings, yet cd's of non protected recordings like the Minnesota tapes are sitting on the shelves just as prominently as the official albums.

    So they are releasing those 50th anniversary releases to avoid releasing them effectively!
     
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  7. Sean Murdock

    Sean Murdock Forum Intruder

    Location:
    Bergenfield, NJ
    Yes, that may very well be a factor, from everything I can gather about Dylan Inc.'s thinking. I believe at least one article in the past year had a Dylan source indicate that there would be no release of JWH outtakes, because none of them had leaked over the years. But they put a ton of stuff on the Copyright 1962 set that hadn't been leaked or booted; and after being more conservative for the 1963 and 1964 sets (sticking mostly with stuff that had been booted), they went back to the kitchen sink approach for 1965 and 1966. I honestly have no idea which way they're going to go with their 1967 leftovers -- but even if they don't consider outtakes from a classic Dylan album as worthy of extension as, say, a dozen takes of "Mixed Up Confusion," I have to ask: Why don't they seem to want to celebrate this great album in some way? I know it doesn't have the sex appeal of Blonde On Blonde or Highway 61, but dammit -- John Wesley Harding is just as good, in its own quieter way.
    I think a bigger Rolling Thunder box is still a possibility -- with or without copyright concerns -- simply because Dylan Inc. seems to value the period and doesn't see it as completely represented by Live 1975. There's the Scorsese movie, the '76 TV special, Renaldo and Clara -- lots of opportunities to monetize the only 1970s period that has the mythical pull of his mid-60s glory days. (I'm including Blood On The Tracks in this period too, although it may be treated to its own Bootleg Series set by itself.)
    There are plenty of Beatles outtakes from 1964-1966 that have been allowed to slip into the Public Domain, according to the EU Directive -- although this has yet to be challenged and confirmed in court. Apple has taken a completely different approach to the matter than Dylan Inc. -- with Bob going the "better safe than sorry" route, and Apple taking a more aggressive "Go ahead, try us" approach. Apple may or may not end up feeling vindicated for sticking to their guns, but I think Dylan's people have discovered that no tangible harm has been done to his legacy by the limited release of his scraps -- and in some cases, they have been able to monetize them and actually ENHANCE his legacy.
     
  8. Sean Murdock

    Sean Murdock Forum Intruder

    Location:
    Bergenfield, NJ
    Don't think small, Dee -- we are in a new era now, and I am confident that we will never see another Bootleg Series release that ONLY consists of a 2- or 3-CD set. They may continue issuing 2-disc samplers, but I don't think we'll see a "deluxe" version smaller than 6 discs going forward. So you could have a BOTT/Desire/RTR set, a Street Legal/Rundown/Live 1978 set, AND an Infidels/Empire/Rest Of The '80s set! If this seems like fan over-reach, consider this -- we already know that BOTT is going to happen in some form; we also know that Dylan Inc. wants to return to Rolling Thunder AND the 1978 tour. On top of that, Heylin is publicly lobbying for a Rundown set and a mid-80s set, and Dylan's "source" has already floated the idea of revisiting the Infidels sessions. I think you're going to get everything you've listed -- it will just be a matter of how they curate it all.
     
  9. Sean Murdock

    Sean Murdock Forum Intruder

    Location:
    Bergenfield, NJ
    I hear you, and I agree that MOST people who would buy a "Dylan/Cash Sessions" set would know what they were in for -- but not everyone. These Bootleg sets (especially the 2-CD sets) are designed to NOT embarrass the Dylan legacy if they are purchased by casual fans or, more likely, children or grandchildren looking to get a holiday/birthday present for a relative who they vaguely know likes this Dylan character but doesn't actually know anything about him themselves.
    Agree that the Witmark Demos isn't the most scintillating Bootleg Series, but its historical value is far greater than that of the Dylan/Cash outtakes, imo. It's a known body of work, a collection of songwriting sketches and publishing demos, in decent quality, of some of Bob's greatest songs -- and some otherwise unreleased songs. We've gotten much more exciting stuff in other BS sets, but the Witmark Demos simply had to be released at some point. You buy this to HAVE it, not necessarily to listen to it a lot.
     
  10. Sean Murdock

    Sean Murdock Forum Intruder

    Location:
    Bergenfield, NJ
    Well, that might be the effective result right now, but I think in the long term, they extended the copyright of those recordings so that they COULD release the best of them in the future, with everything still being under copyright by Bob and Sony. I'm thinking in particular of a possible "Complete Freewheelin' Sessions" or a "Live 1963" set.

    As for the REALLY old stuff like the Minnesota tapes, ALL recordings from before 1962 went out of copyright and entered the Public Domain after 50 years, whether released or unreleased. So go ahead and buy that gray-market "Minnesota Hotel Party" CD -- it's perfectly legal in the EU.
     
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  11. Mbd77

    Mbd77 Collect ‘Em All!

    Location:
    London
    I think it's a mistake for record companies to over-value what they have. A few outtakes or alternates are not some top secret, history changing thing that the public must be kept from hearing at all costs. They might as well release the stuff, keep it in copyright and keep the small percentage of fans who want to hear the material happy. A defensive approach where they'll go to court if anything gets released later on by a third party will just cost them money and is a bit pathetic. It's right that this material should lose copyright if not used under the 50 year rule.

    Incidentally at least two John Wesley Harding alternate takes are out there with one collector, and possibly another tape with a few more has been suggested by another.
     
  12. Mbd77

    Mbd77 Collect ‘Em All!

    Location:
    London
    Just to point out: if they chose not to release any John Wesley Harding outtakes by the end of this year, then decide to stick an alternate of 'Drifter's Escape' on a new Bob Dylan compilation next year, I could absolutely legally go and get 10,000 copies printed up as a vinyl single or put it on my own compilation cd and there's NOTHING they could do about it.
     
  13. RayS

    RayS A Little Bit Older and a Little Bit Slower

    Location:
    Out of My Element
    Information of this sort is just what is needed to influence the release of the JWH stuff, to be "safe". Free to bd.com deluxe edition purchasers please. :)
     
  14. highway

    highway Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boston
    I'd say yes but what about "Don't Think Twice it's All Right"? One of my favorite Dylan performances.

    But the same version is also on bootleg volume seven no direction home.
     
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  15. NumberEight

    NumberEight Came too late and stayed too long

    Agree totally.
     
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  16. asdf35

    asdf35 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin TX
    Yep, and I still have some nostalgia for that time when I was discovering Dylan, and I didn't dare venture out of the early acoustic years. I saw the old Witmark Demos bootleg at an import CD store and almost passed out from the excitement.

    Nowadays, you can get the offical version for a few bucks, and it's sadly considered a weaker volume.
     
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  17. revolution_vanderbilt

    revolution_vanderbilt Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York
    I still consider it important. But it's probably more on level with the copyright collections. I'm glad it's all gathered in one place, in great quality, but I don't think it's accident that it was issued alongside the mono box and Brandeis. It adds to the general narrative of Dylan's first few years on Columbia, but there are many other sides of that era: the albums, the outtakes, the live performances, and, very relevant here, the renditions by other artists for songs that Dylan didn't keep for himself.

    Whether or not they are more essential that the Dylan/Cash sessions, well, the Witmark demos as I said are a part of his early recording career, which is a brilliant and iconic era. Clearly an important piece of history. The Dylan/Cash sessions are a part of Nashville Skyline, so right away we are a level down on the chain. But they, not unlike the album in general I suppose, although taken to the extreme here, are fun and loose. I'd love to see them as part of a Nashville set.

    It could have been interesting to do a Nashville 67-69 set, featuring JWH, Nashville Skyline, and then the early sessions for Self Portrait. In fact, that'd be a good way to released JWH even after it falls out into public domain, featuring alongside other material, so that people would be inclined to purchase the official set. It would have an interesting narrative too, with Dylan's songwriting going from dense, evocative, historical, literary, and allegorical to (cleverly) cliched, romantic, and clear.
     
  18. Sean Murdock

    Sean Murdock Forum Intruder

    Location:
    Bergenfield, NJ
    Agree on all counts! :agree:
     
  19. PacificOceanBlue

    PacificOceanBlue Senior Member

    Location:
    The Southwest
    For some reason, it is not a particularly highly regarded set of recordings. Yet, when I recently played it, I found the Witmark Demos release thoroughly enjoyable.
     
  20. Bink

    Bink Forum Resident

    I feel the same. I recently realised that it works well to pair it with the Philharmonic Hall cd as a kind of pretend box set.
     
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  21. Silas Letort

    Silas Letort New Member

    Another go at the JWH-SP years should certainly not be out of the question. Obviously there is much left unreleased, and not necessarily for good reasons - some of the outtakes and such that circulates prove that, along with Another Self Portrait. But whether or not the JWH material would be included in the future is probably doubtful unless Sony releases some kind of copyright set, however small and clandestinely distributed.

    The whole "there isn't going to be a John Wesley Harding copyright extention" deal seem strange. It appears to be an effective way of cutting themselves off from releasing any alternate takes for the next 25 years. While claims of collectors sitting on copies of one or more such remains a bit murky, for Sony or Dylan staff to likewise claim they don't circulate is a bold statement. How many details have been revealed about Clark Enslin's warehouse tapes? It was stated that there were Dylan tapes among those 'lost tapes', I believe, and also the reel from the Nashville Skyline sessions that appeared on eBay years ago was said to come from his stash, wasn't it? Sony must be very sure of exactly what has passed through where to claim nothing really circulates, including the engineers and scholars who were allowed access to the tapes back in the 90's.

    Perhaps Dylan himself doesn't want any alternate versions to see the light of day. That's fair enough. But if they do anyway, after New Year's Day neither Sony nor Dylan will be able to do anything about it. So why not just make sure they get their share of the cake and the chance to choose how to present it?
     
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  22. Percy Song

    Percy Song A Hoity-Toity, High-End Client

    Agreed.

    Two takes of "All Along The Watchtower", I believe.

    Am I right in saying that mechanical royalties still need to be paid to Bob as composer if these are released by a third party after the copyright expires?
     
  23. slane

    slane Forum Resident

    Location:
    Merrie England
    Yes, the song publishers need to be paid (who then pay the writer/s).

    I seem to recall that Heylin mentioned that alternates of Watchtower and JWH were pulled to the master reel, and so are presumably as good as the released versions.
     
  24. The Bard

    The Bard Highway 61 Revisited. That is all.

    Location:
    Singapore
    BOTT as Vol. 14 would be great.
    BOTT + RTR concerts (which presumably they would need to add in order to make a 'deluxe' offering) would be mind blowing! Bring it on! :goodie:
     
  25. NumberEight

    NumberEight Came too late and stayed too long

    Yes. You should still go ahead and release them though. ;)
     
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