Petition launched to reintroduce Technics turntables (Update: The SL-1200 is Back!)*

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by englishbob, May 27, 2014.

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  1. AArchie

    AArchie Forum Resident

    Location:
    Colorado
  2. AArchie

    AArchie Forum Resident

    Location:
    Colorado
    I did some reading looking for tonearm test results for the GAE/G and this link to the June 2016 Hi-Fi News 1200GAE review is interesting. The graph on page 47 showing tonearm resonance decay spectrum seems to show what I've been posting about. Whether damping it out as I have done is advisable will depend on individual taste.

    Hi Fi News June 2016
     
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  3. Classicrock

    Classicrock Senior Member

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    It depends if that ringing by tapping the arm is of relevance when playing a record. It may be inaudible. An SME arm for instance should be better damped due to the arm tube design, but it isn't necessarily better suited to the SL1200G. Divided opinions existed on this in context of the old SL1200 where Jelco or Ortofon arms are claimed to be better by some. I'm surprised Technics didn't provide internal tube damping as on the PLX 1000. I will have to try the same test on my Pioneer and report back.
     
  4. snorker

    snorker Big Daddy

    Thanks for posting that. A relatively positive review, and excellent measurements, as expected. I wonder if the resonance at that frequency is by design. Meaning, it was tuned to a frequency at which it’s not supposed to be in the audible range (except you can hear it of course!). I couldn’t hear any ringing at all when performing Kevin’s test with the paper clip.

    While not absolutely perfect, I’m satisfied that this turntable’s performance is at a higher level in nearly all respects than similarly-priced competition, and I’m quite satisfied with mine. Vinyl isn’t exactly a perfect medium anyway. ;)
     
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  5. snorker

    snorker Big Daddy

    See my post above. Along the lines of what you’ve written, it could be an intentional design consideration. I personally don’t hear any ringing when performing the paper clip test, not to say @AArchie isn’t hearing it on his ‘arm.
     
  6. AArchie

    AArchie Forum Resident

    Location:
    Colorado
    That graph shows a 300 Hz "ring" in that the decay is so slow. The higher vibrations were attenuated almost immediately. My concern is that at high volume the arm could act as a microphone for the frequencies that it's sensitive to. I have 3.5 grams of silicon tape wrapped on my arm from the headshell to the arm rest/lock that eliminates the ring. I don't think I improved my sound but I have a little bit of peace of mind. (BTW, Kevin at KAB says that the original 1200 aluminum arms have only a high frequency ring caused by the loose washer at the back of the arm. The auxiliary wt takes care of it or he sells a nylon screw that takes care of it if the aux wt isn't in use.)

    I readily admit that I am picking nits. This table sounds fantastic! :D

    Edit: I wonder if my cartridge has anything to do with why I'm getting this ring while others do not? I'm using carts with compliance of 12 and 16 and VTF of 2.3 and 2.5 grams. Maybe higher compliance carts might not have this issue?
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2017
  7. snorker

    snorker Big Daddy

    I don’t know...my Benz Micro Wood SL has compliance of 15 and VTF of about 1.7-1.8.
     
  8. arem

    arem Forum Resident

    If there was an issue with the 1200 arm ringing or feeding back at high volumes I'm sure that club DJ'S would have encountered it. I never did in my years of playing in clubs and I've never heard any DJ I know say anything about it either.
     
  9. AArchie

    AArchie Forum Resident

    Location:
    Colorado
    I don't think the aluminum arm has this resonance. I never got it with my MK2 when testing in the same way and Kevin sure never reported it.

    I don't know what it would take with the magnesiums arm to really hear this resonance outside of testing but I think it's clearly there given the Hi-Fi News test graph.
     
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  10. MikeJedi

    MikeJedi Forum Resident

    Location:
    Las Vegas
    So how is the feel of the 1200GR? More substantial than the iriginal? A little easier to set up carts or about the same ? I know the new ones are built differently that's why I am curious ! Thanks :)
     
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  11. snorker

    snorker Big Daddy

    I emailed with Kevin about this issue and sent him the link to the HiFi news test. Of course he had some interesting insights:

    He wrote that over the years, it has been common to measure tonearm resonances, but it is difficult to take accurate measurements. As he understands it, the way it is done is by mounting a very light transducer to the arm wand. Then you play a frequency sweep record and attempt to pick-up any energy that the cartridge sends into the arm wand. A perfect arm behaves as an acoustical ground point, which means it does not vibrate at any frequency. But if it did, this test would reveal it.

    Further, he wrote that, presumably, the G arm has a few points of resonance, as all arms do. "What you don't know is how, if at all, that colors the sound. Resonance in an arm wand could cause the output to increase or decrease at that frequency depending on whether it is in or out of phase with the cartridge motion."

    He went on to write that this sort of resonance is never on purpose. It is just the outcome of a particular design and choice of materials. It would be useful to know exactly how HiFi News did their test and generated that graph. But in real use, he said, that if you played a frequency sweep test record, and it produced a flat output from 20-20Khz, then these resonances are unimportant. "And of course, no one did that!"

    So, anybody care to take on that task? :tiphat:
     
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  12. Davey

    Davey NP: Portishead ~ Portishead (1997)

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
    Well, we already mentioned that back2vinyl did this test on his GAE earlier in this thread, that's where some of this discussion stems from. Of course, there is no way to establish a real baseline to compare the Technics against, so he compared the two tables he had on hand (Technics vs Orbe with SME V) using the same cartridge, and also compared the outputs of the tables to the CD of the same source. I think he eventually moved the SME V to the Technics.
     
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  13. snorker

    snorker Big Daddy

    Right, I forgot about that. That starts here, right?

    I went back and looked, and I don't know that the testing is really conclusive. He got differing results running the test under a variety of conditions (some the lock was on/off, some an auxiliary weight was used -- and seemed to eliminate the peak). It also doesn't tell us if the anomaly he seemed to measure was audible.
     
  14. Davey

    Davey NP: Portishead ~ Portishead (1997)

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
    Well, that's asking for a lot, who can decide what is audible to you, and if back2vinyl says it is audible, does that mean you believe it is too? My point was just that, contrary to your post from KAB, at least one test has already been done in this very thread, and while not perfect, and not conclusive, it is out there for any of you with the 1200G to try and duplicate, or to show where it is inaccurate. But as I said, you would have to establish some kind of baseline as he did with the Orbe and the well designed SME V tonearm, just running a frequency sweep with only one table doesn't show much except the response of the cartridge on that table, you don't know what is due to the arm or plinth or platter or other parts of the table. As for audibility, that would really be tough to show :)
     
  15. snorker

    snorker Big Daddy

    You're right. But it was actually Kevin that said nobody had done a test. :p I did send that link to him though...curious what he makes of it.
     
  16. Davey

    Davey NP: Portishead ~ Portishead (1997)

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
    But Kevin is KAB, right?
     
  17. snorker

    snorker Big Daddy

    Yes indeed.
     
  18. back2vinyl

    back2vinyl Forum Resident

    Location:
    London, UK
    I should chip in I guess since some tests I did have been mentioned here. There were two things I found when measuring the frequency response of the Technics tonearm on my GAE - one was a mysterious "hill" at around 85 Hz that kept coming and going and the other was some little anomalies in the FR when comparing it with the SME V.

    The first thing to say is that you can safely forget all about that "hill". Whatever it was, it was nothing to do with the tonearm and completely disappeared the next time I moved the turntable to do a tonearm change. It must have been some stray vibration probably arising from some other equipment that was nothing to do with the turntable. I have never seen it again since.

    I did very extensive testing over many months trying to find any sign of the resonance at 300 Hz that Hi-Fi News referred to, and I was never ever able to replicate it. I used the test LP supplied as part of the Dr Feickert Adjust+ Pro testing suite, which I've always found to be very high quality. I did lots of tests - for example, in the Pro version of the Adjust+ suite, there is a tonearm resonance test based on a sweep from 30 Hz to 500 Hz which is aimed specifically at picking up resonances such as the one described by Hi-Fi News and this test, done many times, revealed no stand-out points of resonance at 300 Hz or any other frequency.

    Another test I often did was to record the tonearm playing a pink noise track and then compare the recording with the original. What I always found when doing this was that the SME V would always return a nice smooth curve - not flat, because the cartridge imposes its own EQ on the recording, but very smooth. The Technics tonearm would return a curve that was almost smooth but had the occasional little ripple in it, like the ripples shown in those charts I posted way back. Those little ripples were always there in every test but they were incredibly tiny and I would think totally inaudible.

    Being a bit of a perfectionist and an OCD type person, I wound up keeping the SME V arm on my GAE because I loved that perfectly smooth curve, and I put the Technics tonearm into storage, where it remains today. But I honestly don't think there's anything wrong with the Technics tonearm and I think it offers very nearly the same quality as the SME V at a fraction of the price.

    I'm not saying it isn't possible to make the Technics tonearm resonate at 300 Hz in certain conditions. All I'm saying is, I was never able to detect that resonant peak when playing either pink noise or a sine sweep on a test record and therefore I don't think it appears, or has any effect on the performance of the tonearm, in actual playback conditions.
     
  19. AArchie

    AArchie Forum Resident

    Location:
    Colorado
    I seem to be the only one doing a test in which I hear something. I think the test I did (on KAB's recommendation) may be irrelevant when it comes to stylus induce vibration in the arm but could be relevant when it comes to microphonic induced vibrations. I have a tube in my phono stage that is very sensitive when tapped and I've found certain interconnects make a lot of noise when touched. As Kevin pointed out, everyting will have a sensitivity to certain frequencies. I still think it's good to track down these frequencies and try to mitigate them but in the case of the G/GAE tonearms, listening tests indicate that there is not a problem.
     
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  20. Davey

    Davey NP: Portishead ~ Portishead (1997)

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
    BTW, the last couple pages have been mostly about the 1200G tonearm and possible resonances, partly stemming from the measurements Paul Miller made in the Hi-Fi News review of the GAE, and below is from the recent GR review ...

    While the ’1200GAE’s cold-drawn magnesium tube
    delivered one very clear resonant mode at a remarkably high
    300Hz, the alloy equivalent here demonstrates a very different
    and more complex series of resonances more in keeping with
    other S-shaped tonearms we’ve tested in the past. Bending
    modes at 85Hz and 150Hz are joined by a trio of higher-Q
    resonances at 215Hz, 270Hz and 310Hz – the latter showing
    some ‘reflection’ back from the bearing – and what appears
    to be the detachable headshell flexing at 590Hz. The gimbal
    bearings themselves have a very small degree of play while
    friction is very low at 5-10mg and the 8-9g effective mass
    renders the arm well suited to moderate-to-high compliance
    MMs, including the popular Ortofon 2M series. PM


    [​IMG]
     
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  21. AArchie

    AArchie Forum Resident

    Location:
    Colorado
    Are there any differences between the G and GR tonearms other than tube material? The G is quite different from the MK2.
     
  22. Gabe Walters

    Gabe Walters Forum Resident

    I’d love a link to the GR review, if there is one.
     
  23. Davey

    Davey NP: Portishead ~ Portishead (1997)

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
  24. Gabe Walters

    Gabe Walters Forum Resident

    Thanks--it wasn't turning up in my search results, and I thought you might be quoting from the print mag.
     
  25. snorker

    snorker Big Daddy

    Thanks for posting that.

    Unrelated to the resonance question, but since you have removed the G’s arm from the deck, could you tell what they used for tonearm wiring? Kevin of KAB has a GR arm and confirmed it uses a tinned copper wiring, and indications from elsewhere in this thread are that the G uses the same wire, but Kevin expected they would use the all copper wiring previously used in the M5G version.
     
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