Close to giving up (Buzz/Hum problem)

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by dastinger, Feb 21, 2018.

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  1. dastinger

    dastinger Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Portugal
    I can't thank everyone enough for all the help so far. Thank you, guys!

    Thank you for clarifying the grounding scheme on turntables. I only connected a speaker wire from the receiver to the ground prong of an outlet because I have tried a ton of things and it couldn't hurt. Truth is, it worked to some extent. The buzz was reduced.

    I'm pretty sure my friend who has been helping me with the whole process has a multimeter so we are gonna test it tomorrow. It's not gonna be easy to find a metal part with no finish on the tonearm. The RB110 has a matte finish all around and there are close to none bare metal areas. I'm gonna do what I can though. It would be great If I'd be able to prove there's an issue with the turntable. At least all this would end and I'd have Rega taking care of it for me.

    Just one question, what do you mean by grounding sleeve on the RCA? Is it the rounded part (not the little tip)?

    I've done that already. There are only two screws holding the motor in place (where the power cord is also connected). I tried touching both with speaker wire connected to the Marantz ground screw and it didn't help. I tried every metal part I could find on the turntable. Nothing :(

    So, tomorrow I'm taking care of the cartridge test (just "resetting" the wires and swapping carts) and I'll also do the multimeter test. I'll report back as soon as I have more info. Again, a huge thank you to everyone!
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2018
  2. Vinylanswer.net

    Vinylanswer.net Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York,NY
    Oh does the rp1 not have an external power supply?
    On the higher models there is a psu box. That's what I was referring to.
     
  3. dastinger

    dastinger Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Portugal
    It doesn't. It's only a power cord connected to the motor on the underside of the plinth.
     
  4. I had a problem with hum in my stereo system. Tried all kinds of things to get it to go away. Turns out it was the satellite TV receiver creating the hum. It wasn't connected to the stereo, wasn't on the same power outlet or circuit. When I unplugged it from the wall the hum in the stereo went away. When I listen to the stereo then I would unplug the satellite TV receiver. Finally got rid of Sat TV a couple years ago.
     
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  5. dastinger

    dastinger Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Portugal
    I read about that as well, but, as I stated in an earlier post, I isolated the room where my audio gear is in by turning off everything else on the circuit breaker. And in the room where everything is set up, there wasn't anything else connected. No lights, no appliances, nothing. Still had a buzz.
     
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  6. Al402

    Al402 Active Member

    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    Hi Dastinger. I have just joined the forum. Sorry to hear that you are a victim of the dreaded mystery turntable hum. I have been designing and building custom turntables for a number of years, working closely with the owner of a local turntable repair shop. Who has been repairing and refurbishing them for over 20 yrs.
    As a number of contributors have already suggested, it is most likely to be a grounding issue within the turntable itself. The arm, arm column, motor body, any type of metal that is part of the chassis etc. You need to connect those in turn to the phono ground on your amp to check the effect. It may need a combination of more than one or an existing ground connection that is loose. This shouldn't be the case with a new turntable but sometimes happens. The components act as antenna and the interference is picked up by the usually unscreened tonearm cable. On one custom setup I even had to add a slipring to the shaft of a metal platter and take that to ground.
    Anyway, I would try to eliminate all of these sources first before buying expensive power conditioners, filters etc. They rarely work.
     
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  7. dastinger

    dastinger Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Portugal
    @chervokas

    So, I tested with the multimeter and it has continuity. I unscrewed a rubber cap the tonearm has and accessed the inside to touch with one of the tips of the multimeter while the other was attached to the left RCA glove. There was continuity and the result was really close to zero. I also swapped the cartridge with my friend's and the buzz didn't go away or change whatsoever.

    I took the opportunity to attach a speaker cable to the ground prong of one of my outlets at home and touch the inside of the tonearm with the other tip. The results were exactly the same as attaching the speaker cable to the ground screw on my receiver. It reduced the buzz to about 40% of what it was originally. I can't seem to reduce it further.

    Thank you so much for your reply. I already tried that. I tried touching every bare metal part of the turntable with speaker wire connected to the ground screw of my receiver and it didn't help. The only thing that helped is above in reply to chervokas. And it only reduced it a bit more than 50% which, in my opinion, should still not be acceptable.
     
  8. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    A general search of the web suggests that this issue is not uncommon; indeed there have been threads here on the Hoffman forum about the same issues- buzz or hum; some suggest it is tonearm grounding; others, induced through the cartridge and greater when the tonearm is in proximity to the motor. (i have no first hand experience with these decks so can't offer practical suggestions or conclude that the problem is endemic). I guess one possible solution is to see if your dealer offers other decks and see if he is willing to get you into something else- equivalent or better -without a lot of pain.
    I'm still puzzled why the problem wasn't manifest at the dealers'--
     
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  9. rxonmymind

    rxonmymind Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sacramento
    Just to lighten the thread up a bit.
    I'd highly recommend this special filter if all else fails. Caution! NOT cheap. Trained by the NSA to find hum, noise and other electronic eve dropping equipment.

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/rPd8eRU1OkILNLSA3

     
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  10. psulioninks

    psulioninks Forum Resident

    Location:
    KC Chiefs Kingdom
    It's too bad you don't have a dedicated phono preamp you could use in conjunction with a line level input on you receiver to see if that solved your problem - it very well could. Because at this point, there seems to be an issue with your turntable not liking the phono inputs of these receivers. If you like your receiver, a separate phono preamp might be the cheapest fix (assuming you want to keep the turntable you have).
     
  11. Mr Bass

    Mr Bass Chevelle Ma Belle

    Location:
    Mid Atlantic
    The problem must be centered here since the buzz does go down noticeably. It's just that there is some other loop that must be operating. In other words there may be more than one grounding issue. So leave one partial fix in place and see if you can find another loop.
     
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  12. psulioninks

    psulioninks Forum Resident

    Location:
    KC Chiefs Kingdom
    Also, have you tried plugging the power from your receiver into a totally different outlet nowhere near the one powering your turntable? Use an extension cord to test this if you must. But moving an item to a totally different power outlet (when it is not even powered on) may fix your problem - it did for me.
     
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  13. Classicrock

    Classicrock Senior Member

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    Used a Rega RB300 for years with no issues. The Rega grounding on one cable screen does work. I think there may be an internal wiring fault here. Would also suggest trying a different phono stage. Sometimes grounding schemes between components can clash. Also check your mains is actually grounded. Maybe need a separate ground wire to an earthing spike.
     
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  14. dastinger

    dastinger Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Portugal
    Yeh, searching the web I found a lot of Rega users having the same issue. And owners of other turntables that use the same grounding method like the U Turn Orbit. The motor hum on Regas is due to the motor placement. But it's more of a hum, not a buzz/hiss like mine.

    I talked to them when I took the equipment in to test. Given that I'm out of the 14 day period buyers have to return things, I'm pretty sure I'm stuck with this one. I either sell it in eBay or something and lose some money or I ask them to come to my place and find a solution. I just want to avoid costs to add up, you know?

    This makes a lot of sense, but what else could I do? Any ideas?

    I'll test this as soon as I feel better from the flu. I have an extension cord that's big enough to try plugs from different floors. I'll report back as soon as I test it.

    I'm pretty sure my mains are grounded. The grounding wire is there (I opened one up) and when I run speaker cable from the ground screw on the receiver to the grounding pole on an outlet, the buzz is reduced a lot.

    Also, don't forget I also tried it at a friend's place that was just renovated 1 and a half year ago. It is also grounded.

    About the phono stage, it's a possibility. But I tried three amps, three with the same issue. And my amp didn't buzz at the store, even though I'm more inclined to ignore the test at the store each day that passes. I'm 99% sure they use some kind of filters on their mains.
     
  15. Mr Bass

    Mr Bass Chevelle Ma Belle

    Location:
    Mid Atlantic
    I believe these two actions above don't depend on running wire from the receiver to the grounding plate. Also try to run a second wire that you can ground somewhere (perhaps to another receiver if you have one) and attach with tape the free end to various parts of the TT while the other partial fixes are in place.
     
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  16. dastinger

    dastinger Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Portugal
    The second one was before I even ran wire from the receiver to the grounding plate. Now maybe I can plug the turntable directly to the power strip and the buzz amount won't change, who knows? I think that only helped because I was giving the receiver something to unload. I'll test tomorrow.

    I'll also take care of testing with another wire as soon as I feel better and report back.
     
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  17. bluesaddict

    bluesaddict High Tech Welder

    Location:
    Loveland, Colorado
    I'm sorry if I have missed this, but have you tried a different turntable?
     
  18. Classicrock

    Classicrock Senior Member

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    Check if the amps used are grounded to mains. Possible they were Class II double insulated designs. (Third pin on IEC socket will be missing or plastic/if fixed cable may look thinner than norm). Would suggest a dedicated phono stage used or just loan one from the dealer to try.
     
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  19. dastinger

    dastinger Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Portugal
    Yes, I tried a Pioneer PL-100 that has a separate ground wire and it didn't buzz. Exact same spot as where mine is.

    None of the amps used are grounded to mains, unfortunately. Nor is the turntable. They have the small two prong European plugs, not the big round one that touches the ground prongs on the outlets.

    I'll try that, but I'd need a phono stage that's grounded to mains or the result could be the same.

    Still, my turntable + receiver didn't buzz at the store, but then again, I'm pretty sure they have some kind of filtering in the mains. Their store is amazing equipment-wise, so I'd be surprised if they didn't have some kind of filtering going on.
     
  20. Classicrock

    Classicrock Senior Member

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    This has nothing to do with mains filtering but grounding. You need to have some way of grounding your arm/cable. I suggest try a separate ground wire to a dedicated 3 pin European plug.

    If you have a grounding post on your amp run an earth from this, if not from a case screw. The earth on the rega arm should work through the cable shield and connect through the amp case. Rega TT do have earthing - the other TT tried obviously has an internal earthing system (class II). Also suggest borrow a Rega phono stage. Although the 'Fono' has a plug top I found no hum issues with my older MC model with a Rega arm connected.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2018
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  21. Mo0g

    Mo0g Forum Resident

    Location:
    London
    First; people saying they have Rega turntables with the same grounding scheme but have no problems, perhaps that is because you are lucky enough not to live near enough to a source of interference, rather than this being evidence that the Regas do not have this issue? It would appear that many people do have a problem, so is it not safe to assume that if you have one of these affected turntables AND live close enough to a source of interference, you WILL have the same problem?

    Second; regardless of whether you are outside your 14 day return period, I am sure Portugal will have equivalent laws/consumer rights on merchantable quality. Put simply, you have demonstrated that for whatever reason, Rega turntables do not work satisfactorily in YOUR house, you bought it to listen to music and it is entirely reasonable for you to expect to do that without any abnormal hum/interference. So, I am sure you are within your legal rights to return the TT to the dealer, but even if you werent, any dealer worth their salt would accept you have an issue and would accept a return, especially if you wanted to buy a different TT from them.

    Unless you are totally married to idea of running this turntable I think your best course of action is to cut your losses, go back to the dealer and tell them it just does not work in your house and you would like to exchange it for a different TT. If they were the distrustful sort you could let them come to your house with an armful of Rega and non Rega TTs and see for themselves. Life is too short, you should be kicking back and listening to music!
     
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  22. dastinger

    dastinger Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Portugal
    My arm is grounded even if by a different method than the one used my most manufacturers. I don't know if you're familiar with Rega's grounding method, but they have a metal plate touching the inside of the tonearm. There's a wire soldered to that plate. That wire is then soldered to the blue cartridge wire and the left RCA takes care of grounding. There aren't 3 pin European plugs and I'm not sure how I would run a ground wire to a power plug?

    You're absolutely right. I'll call them in and tell them exactly that. I just don't know how much more I'd have to spend to buy a turntable that sounds as good as the Planar 1. I think there's no bang for your buck turntable as good as this sound-wise, unfortunately.
     
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  23. Classicrock

    Classicrock Senior Member

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    I've added some suggestions above to try. Your dealer should be able to loan you a Fono MM. BTW have you tried turning off all other house appliances such as Fridges and Central heating boiler to eliminate them as problems.
     
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  24. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    I would probably agree if we are talking about the 400$ range. But only if its new. Vintage wise you could get a much greater deal for 400$. But thats all if you feel confident enough to try and have the patience to wait for one. If I were you I might take the money, look online and find a minty Technics SL1200. Japanese sites sell them for great prices and they usually know how to ship safely. But it is a risk of course.
     
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  25. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    It may be obvious, but rather than go full assault on them, I'd talk to the manager or owner and explain that you want them to "work with you" to find a solution- whether that means a home visit (I forget how far you said the shop is from your home), a trade in for another table, perhaps trying a phono section as some other users have suggested, etc. I've usually found that a sincere "let's solve this problem" works better than getting accusatory. (I'm not implying that @Mo0g was suggesting anything different).
    Most of these businesses- particularly if they have high end pretentions- should be in it for the long haul (do you have this expression in Portuguese?- that is, a long term relationship of repeat business through building goodwill).
    You will get this sorted.
    Over the years, I suspect all of us have had mysterious problems come and go with hi-fi systems. It's part of the "fun" of this endeavor.
    My wife knows that when I'm cursing a blue streak, getting all sweaty, up in the room for hours fiddling and playing "test sounds" or short excerpts rather than listening to music, I'm just "enjoying my hobby."
     
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