Revisiting Duke - Genesis: It's actually good.

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Eleventh Earl of Mar, May 4, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Talisman954

    Talisman954 Forum Resident

    Nonsense is a bit strong.
    But if you compare the singles off Invisible Touch to lets say earlier stuff like Abacab. Abacab. Man On The Corner . Keep It Dark. Those 3 singles were hardly commercial songs, let’s fast forward 5 years to Invisible Touch. The Singles Invisible Touch.Throwing It All Away. In Too Deep. Fast Forward another 5 years or so. We Can’t Dance. Great first single..then. I Can’t Dance ..Jesus He Knows Me!!!! I mean cmon.
    Yes each album had the odd longer song like The Brazilian but the later albums were way too pop, and trust me when I say I still loved them, I just much prefer the stuff up to Genesis Genesis.
     
    Hillel abramov likes this.
  2. wavethatflag

    wavethatflag God is love, but get it in writing.

    Location:
    SF Bay Area
    I listened to Duke last night due to this thread. "Turn It On Again" will pump you up.
     
    giantleech likes this.
  3. Hillel abramov

    Hillel abramov Forum resident

    Location:
    Tel Aviv
    Well, the likes I get beg to differ.
     
  4. Detroit Music Fan

    Detroit Music Fan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Detroit
    I think these complaints and observations are all related. Steve's forum members do have a low tolerance for bad pop. I think they're fine with good pop. And Hillel's not wrong, he's just getting the gist of the argument against late-period Genesis out there, not the details.

    I think Genesis' later albums like Invisible Touch and We Can't Dance fail in comparison to other works because it's poor pop. I'd guess that's because no matter what his intentions, Phil's efforts were going toward his other projects until he got a little burnt out. In the '80s we have 4 Genesis albums and 4 solo albums, plus other side projects like touring and working with Clapton (2 albums, 1 tour), Robert Plant (2 albums, 1 tour) and Brand X (1 album+), among others.

    Look at the hits and fan favorites on No Jacket Required, a pop album if I ever heard one and one that I bet many forum members love. In the U.S., it had two #1 singles, 4 top 10 singles, the number 1 for several weeks and on the charts for months and months (years?).

    Look at Invisible Touch a year later -- slightly less performance, reaches no. 3 on the U.S. charts, 5 top 5 singles but one #1 single. It doesn't sell as many copies. And how well did that album sell based on Phil's brand? I think a lot.

    It's not just about pop vs. prog. It's about focus.

    I'm sure Phil was doing his best in '86, but come on, his focus was on his solo career in the '80s and most of his side projects were pretty big hits too. Genesis just wasn't Phil's main or only priority. I'd argue Genesis didn't have as many hits or memorable tunes as a result, particularly after Genesis. By the way, I like it all to one degree or another and Duke is great, not just good.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
    Talisman954 and Hillel abramov like this.
  5. Zach Johnson

    Zach Johnson Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    As much as I don't care for poppy Genesis, their transition from prog (with a little pop) to pop (with a little prog) was done quite well with Wind & Wuthering through to Abacab.
     
  6. Denim Chicken

    Denim Chicken Dayman, fighter of the Nightman

    Location:
    Bakersfield, CA
    Amazing album. Duke’s Travels alone makes it a must have for prog fans. Heathaze is one of my favorite Genesis songs. Incredible composition by Tony.
     
  7. Denim Chicken

    Denim Chicken Dayman, fighter of the Nightman

    Location:
    Bakersfield, CA
    And for the record, I love my prog and pop equally. For me a pop song can have just as much artistic merit as any prog song. All that matters is if I like it or not, I don’t care if it’s proggy or poppy. Give me Musical Box and Hold On My Heart... both songs touch me.
     
  8. MikeManaic61

    MikeManaic61 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Virginia
    Hear, Hear. Thankfully, I'm not all "artsy fartsy" and gladly take both worlds.

    Some musicians don't like being stagnant and try to change things up a bit. Their prog years weren't all that imo, even those have hits and kisses just as well.
     
    bruce2 likes this.
  9. mx20

    mx20 Enthusiast

    Location:
    Raleigh, NC
    I love Duke and Abacab and Three Sides Live, buy but not what came after. There is a lot of "poor pop" in the Genesis catalog (esp. after 1982), but I don't consider the Invisible Touch album to be bad at being a pop album; quite the opposite, though the title track is awful. I just happen to not care for the Invisible Touch album, personally.

    To me, much of the 1983 s/t album and We Can't Dance are, in fact, poor attempts at pop music, but they sold well, so what do I know?

    Duke is a successful marriage of 70s prog and proto-80s radio-friendly rock, imo.
     
  10. Talisman954

    Talisman954 Forum Resident

    Surprised to hear that about Genesis - Genesis.
    For me that is when they got it right.
    Mama / That’s All/Home By The Sea/ Silver Rainbow/ It’s Gonna Get Better/ Taking It All Too Hard are all superb songs to my ears.
    I even enjoyed I Alien but I expect I am in the minority with that one.
    Duke and Genesis are my 2 favorite albums from them by a country mile.
    The prog years were way before my time though.
     
  11. Talisman954

    Talisman954 Forum Resident

    I also think posting someone’s opinion as nonsense is a little much.
    I mean saying you have a different opinion is one thing, but posting his opinion is nonsense comes across like you know for a fact your right.
    In this case nobody is, it’s just different tastes and different opinions.
    But most importantly here we all love Genesis.
     
  12. Yufri

    Yufri Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hamburg, Germany
    Duke was their most experienced album up to that time. It is a great blend between the old and the new. I always thought of it as the ultimate Genesis album, because almost all what represents Genesis music is included on that record. You may like the Gabriel era better but on Duke you get the best from both worlds. I always recommend Duke as a starting point. There are 3 absolute timeless Genesis albums: SEBTP, TOAT and Duke.
     
    Talisman954, Instant Dharma and mx20 like this.
  13. Rfreeman

    Rfreeman Senior Member

    Location:
    Lawrenceville, NJ
    Turn it on Again may be the ultimate synthesis of pop and prog. Doubt there has been another rock hit that has used as challenging time signatures as it - also grest use of chords/inversions.
     
  14. mx20

    mx20 Enthusiast

    Location:
    Raleigh, NC
    Y'know I've heard Rutherford lament in interviews that Genesis never had "one of THOSE albums" (a Dark Side or a Who's Next or what have you), but I have to wonder if Duke is as close to that milestone as the band would ever get?
     
    ian christopher and Talisman954 like this.
  15. MikeVielhaber

    MikeVielhaber Forum Resident

    Location:
    Memphis, TN
    Phil wasn't working on his solo stuff during the invisible touch era. I don't think thats where his focus was at that point in time. Did he sell out 4 nights at Wembley stadium as a solo artist? I havent heard of it if he did. They were huge. As big as they had ever been or ever would be. I doubt Phil wasn't focused on that at that time. Plus the song writing was done organically with the three of them and the burden was not on Phil to write everything.

    What qualifies something as good pop and bad or poor pop? Whether the people on Steve Hoffman Forum like it? The singles from Invisible Touch are still regularly played on the radio. More than anything before it, aside from maybe That's All. Misunderstanding gets a good amount of play too. But those songs have lasted. That's got to be the best measure. Its hard to make the argument that they were not memorable.

    I think NJR would not win a favorite album poll, which has probably happened. But at the same time I think Genesis is held to a different standard due to their origins. Phil was a pop artist from beginning to end. Genesis was not. Just a bit ago someone criticized them for becoming too pop. That same criticism is not thrown at Phil because thays what Phil is, he's pop.

    Lastly, I never even thought to consider invisible touch as a commercial let down from NJR. That's just a ridiculous argument to me. Phil was never going to consistently sell 10 million albums just like Michael Jackson was never realistically going to repeat the success of Thriller. Five top five singles is very impressive and NJR did not accomplish that. Would it, then, also follow that But Seriously was a let down from Invisible Touch because it sold less and had fewer hits? Was Phil even less focused? They all had their own accomplishments and were hugely successful in their own way.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
    Runicen and Rojo like this.
  16. Mike's right, they dont have one. They have at least 9!
     
  17. Talisman954

    Talisman954 Forum Resident

    I know having watched Tony say this many times in interviews, Duke is his favorite ever Genesis album.
    Who am I to argue. He is right.
     
  18. mbrownp1

    mbrownp1 Forum Resident

    No...Lamb is that album.
     
  19. Rfreeman

    Rfreeman Senior Member

    Location:
    Lawrenceville, NJ
    It would have been if it had sold anywhere near as well as the albums thst followed it
     
  20. Rufus rag

    Rufus rag Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    He's absolutely right!
     
    ian christopher likes this.
  21. Rfreeman

    Rfreeman Senior Member

    Location:
    Lawrenceville, NJ
    About 5 years ago I was sitting in with a band on Turn It On Again and I learned to double the entire keyboard part on guitar. Then I got there and they wanted me to do the repeating bass note pulse the whole time through. They relented when they saw the disappointment on my face due to how long I had learned mastering all the perfect chord inversions to play the more complex part.
     
    Runicen and ian christopher like this.
  22. ian christopher

    ian christopher Argentina (in Spirit)

    Location:
    El Centro
    Gabriel's aura was too erudite and Phil's aura was too everyman.

    I love both "auras", but they lacked the epic feel of Floyd or The Who.

    Interestingly to note that, pound for pound and song for song, I prefer Genesis to both Floyd and The Who.
     
    enro99 likes this.
  23. ian christopher

    ian christopher Argentina (in Spirit)

    Location:
    El Centro
    For us it indeed is, but for mainstream/casual listeners, Lamb can't touch the emotional resonance and
    relatable lyrical content of Dark Side or Who's Next.
     
    mx20 likes this.
  24. Rfreeman

    Rfreeman Senior Member

    Location:
    Lawrenceville, NJ
    Lamb is a bit more like The Wall in that the reach of both vastly exceeds its grasp with the result that the narrative thread is entirely lost on most listeners before the end.

    Who's Next made the brilliant move of deleting the unintelligible Lifehouse narrative and just presenting a single album of the best musical moments inspired by the story, which is why it became the Who's greatest studio album over Tommy and Quadrophenia.
     
    Rufus rag and ian christopher like this.
  25. ian christopher

    ian christopher Argentina (in Spirit)

    Location:
    El Centro
    yes, this is true - and the closest Genesis ever came to a catchy turn of phase like "hey teacher leave them kids alone - all in all you're just another brick in the wall"

    was ...

    "she seems to have an invisible touch yeah! she reaches in, and grabs right hold of your heart!"

    once again, I'll submit that I vastly prefer Genesis (and listen to them much more often than I do Floyd), but there's a resonance with so many of Floyd's lyrics- you have to dig much deeper (and listen much more intently) to find the magic in Genesis.

    Heck, my fave Genesis slab is "And Then There Were Three" (followed closely by 1983 self titled) - talk about a slog of a full listen the first 7 times!
     
    enro99 likes this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

molar-endocrine