The Beatles: UK Response to US Capitol versions?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by John Porcellino, May 18, 2016.

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  1. If I Can Dream_23

    If I Can Dream_23 Forum Resident

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    Dylan reportedly echoed similar sentiments, saying that when he heard the song, he then knew the direction popular music was going to have to take. Not to mention he misheard the "I can't hide" line. :)
     
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  2. BryanA-HTX

    BryanA-HTX Crazy Doctor

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    There's a ton of younger Beatles fans, myself included, that grew up in an era where the original UK track listing had become the worldwide norm. I couldn't ever see myself listening to the original US releases, personally. I'm too used to the originals!
     
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  3. If I Can Dream_23

    If I Can Dream_23 Forum Resident

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    Great post!
     
  4. If I Can Dream_23

    If I Can Dream_23 Forum Resident

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    Here in the US it was "There! I've Said It Again" by Bobby Vinton that preceeded "I Want To Hold Your Hand" at #1. Definitely a contrast that must have been pretty jarring! At least in the style and vibe of the two songs.
     
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  5. Price.pittsburgh

    Price.pittsburgh Forum Resident

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    Well soundtracks serve the purpose of a soundtrack and one of those was United Artists not Capitol.
    But the U.S. fans were never accustomed to ever having 11 to 14 songs on albums so having the hits on LP was always very convenient.
     
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  6. Price.pittsburgh

    Price.pittsburgh Forum Resident

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    Martin and the boys had all the right in the world to not sign with Capitol if they didn't want to.
     
  7. imthewalrus79

    imthewalrus79 Forum Resident

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    I guess technically, the Parolphone releases are compilations as well. The big difference between the two though is that the Parolophone releases were compiled from recording sessions that were intended to make that album while Capitol pulled tracks from various albums. Also, the Parolophone releases were sequenced by either The Beatles and/or George Martin, while the US tracklistings were decided by Capitol executives who wanted to put together the best albums to please the US audience.

    So, that said, while you can't deny that the UK albums are the way The Beatles/George Martin intended for you to hear their work, it's hard to deny that the Capitol albums deserve to be just as recognized. After all, the Capitol albums are what helped Beatlemania to make it in America. You can argue that the songs were so good that the US could have released the albums just as they were in the UK. But they weren't, the Capitol editions were released and helped get the Beatles over in the biggest market in the world.

    Ultimately, I like having both. The Capitol albums are, to me, a bit like the "LOVE" album, an alternate way to listen to the great music from The Beatles.
     
  8. EdogawaRampo

    EdogawaRampo Senior Member

    I remember trying to argue with someone (again, decades ago) that I Want To Hold Your Hand was progressive, especially in the way the guitar intro sounds. My buddy was stuck on the lyrics and countering that it was impossible to consider something so bubblegum as in any way progressive, but to this day I think the intro is one of the coolest guitar intros ever, let alone for 1963/4. It just doesn't sound like anything else. Still.
     
  9. schnitzerphilip

    schnitzerphilip "Modern Dad" Unlocked Award

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    That's my point; the artist didn't care enough about the tracks and running orders of the LP's in the American market. They cared about sales and market share, two datapoints that were flowing their way in spades thanks to Capitol's packaging of the UK body of work into a catalog that flourished in their territory.

    So pre-1967, Beatles canon for the UK and Beatles canon for the US were two slightly different things. If the artist cared, different story. If Capitol butchered Sgt. Pepper or Abbey Road we'd be having a very different conversation. EMI and the Beatles let the US team handle the US market. They condoned the behavior therefore the Capitol releases are canon, just for a different country.
     
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  10. If I Can Dream_23

    If I Can Dream_23 Forum Resident

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    Very true.

    Personally, I enjoy the US soundtracks of the Beatles first two films much more than the "Beatles-loaded" UK versions precisely because they are soundtracks. I like the more succinct nature of the running orders, and I actually enjoy the instrumentals because they take me back to the film, and also add a sense of fun, romance, style, or even exoticness to the albums.

    By contrast the actual UK albums feel too big a mouthful and, more importantly (to me), don't play as soundtracks!

    I actually like that those two Beatles films have "true" soundtracks, for it gives them a bit of distinction and an "in the moment" character absent from the original UK versions.

    It's kind of like enjoying a James Bond soundtrack. I don't want to just hear "whatever best songs" John Barry has written in his home the last three months. I want to hear the soundtrack as it reflects the film.
     
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  11. schnitzerphilip

    schnitzerphilip "Modern Dad" Unlocked Award

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    No question. And three consecutive weekends no less.

    The key decision was to not release the Beatles first effort first in the US. Please Please Me/Introducing The Beatles is a slipshod affair, it's unpolished and lacks creativity. Launching the Beatles in America using With The Beatles as the base, getting 4 of the covers out of there, putting the huge I Want To Hold Your Hand/This Boy single on there, and using that distinctive photo to create Meet The Beatles was a masterstroke of marketing genius by Capitol.

    Don't forget that The Beatles Second Album was released only 8 weeks later with the remaining With The Beatles cover tracks, the monster She Loves You single, and a few others from UK EP's and even the upcoming Hard Days Night project. Point being that between late December '63 and early April '64, about 3 months time, all fans in the US were caught up (and even ahead) of the fans in the UK with the Beatles output, the fact that it was scrambled on LP's instead of EP's and with singles put on the LP's is immaterial.
     
  12. ShockControl

    ShockControl Bon Vivant and Raconteur!

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    I am still wishin' and hopin' for a complete release of Ken Thorne's score to Help! My complaint about the American LP as a kid was that it didn't have enough of the film's spy music on it!

    Until then, I will make due with the LP and the 11-minute suite, available on a Ken Thorne comp. The suite features some music that did not make it to the LP. Brilliant inter-weavings of Beatles melodies.

     
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  13. A well respected man

    A well respected man Some Mother's Son

    Location:
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    I didn't mean equal in terms of musical merit. I mean they can never be equal in significance, because the UK albums are the original works as conceived by The Beatles and George Martin. The US albums have their place and there's nothing wrong in preferring them, but they will never be the originals.


    No, I'm saying that the Capitol albums were not devised or sanctioned by The Beatles (except MMT), so they can never be equal in terms of significance to the UK albums. Whoever denies that is blinded by nostalgia.


    A Capitol compilation, but this time approved by the Beatles. That already sets it apart from the previous Capitol albums. It has been added to the UK catalog because of convenience. If The Beatles consider it canon, I am not to argue with them.


    That's not how things worked. They trusted Epstein, and later one they regretted it, because he signed a lot of bad deals. They couldn't know what Capitol was going to do. Why do you think they demanded their albums to remain untouched when they renewed their contract?


    From that point of view, every album in the world is a compilation.


    Wrong. Read post #725.


    So you think they didn't care before 1967, and they did from 1967... What made them change their mind? Why are they on record complaining about the Capitol butchering?
    Please inform yourself before commenting.
     
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  14. EdogawaRampo

    EdogawaRampo Senior Member

    The artists didn't care or, if they did, didn't have their input considered? I'm not sure myself, but just read the track lists were assembled by others, not the artists, at least in the early stage. So when you write that sales and market share "thanks to Capitol's packaging of the UK body of work into a catalog that flourished in their territory", I'd argue that the catalog would have flourished regardless, especially since the very same man at Capitol who'd turned down The Beatles 1963 releases (and was proud of the German beer drinking song lp he'd compiled), was the same man who assembled The Beatles US catalog and oversaw the "production" of the sound on those albums. Kind of unlikely IMO that this was a man with his finger on the pulse of America's youth market.

    Canon or not, I don't think it was "EMI and The Beatles" who let the US team handle the US market. I'd be willing to bet it was a contractual arrangement between EMI execs and Capitol execs. I could be wrong. I'm sure there's someone here who knows.
     
  15. schnitzerphilip

    schnitzerphilip "Modern Dad" Unlocked Award

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    A great post and a great read, thank you!

    But think of it this way: The "Early Beatles Sound" of '62 and '63 didn't cut it in the US. The Vee Jay/Tollie/Swan singles all charted, but they didn't make it. They all appeared in big record stores across the country, Introducing The Beatles got shelf space, the kids were in the shops 3x a week, it's not like these were never heard. They were.

    What hit huge in America was "The Next Step Beatles Sound" of '64 which coincides with "I Want To Hold Your Hand" and the rest of the "With The Beatles" songs. Point being that if Vee Jay had the '64 Beatles output instead of Capitol the Beatles still would have hit big because of the IWTHYH single. That likely would have led to Sullivan appearances and what we now know as Beatlemania anyway. So it wasn't just resources that Vee Jay lacked; they had the very early Beatles material whose production value and writing style sounded like it was from 1954 not 1964. And back to the point, that's why Capitol nailed it- they eschewed the '62 and '63 stuff for the launch, went for the modern sound instead.
     
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  16. If I Can Dream_23

    If I Can Dream_23 Forum Resident

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    Yes! That would be a welcome treat! Maybe somehow a Super Deluxe Box of the soundtrack will hit the market. But probably not.

    That's also, ironically, the only small problem I have with the album as well - I feel that some of the better score passages aren't on the soundtrack.
     
  17. ShockControl

    ShockControl Bon Vivant and Raconteur!

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    Well, film score specialty labels release limited edition film scores all the time. It would probably cost more money than it is worth to try to release the Beatles tracks and complete Ken Thorne score together, but I imagine the score alone could be a possibility.

    The Wagner track was a waste of space.

    It's funny, "Love You Too" must have sounded like a radical departure in the UK, but in the US, we had a track that sounded like that a year before ("The Chase)!
     
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  18. NumberEight

    NumberEight Came too late and stayed too long

    Dexter’s decision not to release the Beatles on Capitol appears to be based on what we’d nowadays call metrics, instead of actually listening to the music (which, as a jazz aficionado, he apparently doesn’t like in the first place).

    And yet for some reason he subsequently decides that he ‘understands’ the music well enough to remix and ‘improve’ it to suit his perception of what the fans want to hear.

    He clearly didn’t have a clue. How could the results of this mismatch possibly be defensible?
     
  19. notesfrom

    notesfrom Forum Resident

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    I agree that the delayed reaction on the part of Capitol was a blessing in the end. When they realized what potential the band now had in America (by end of 1963), they could throw their promotional weight behind the act.

    They got rid of 5 of the 6 cover songs that went with With The Beatles, where they dominate Side 2 of that album. They fit in much better blended with the Second Album material.

    Sticking singles and EP material made something like the Second Album and Meet The Beatles great releases and listens unto themselves. Some of those tracks wouldn't appear on a UK LP until 1978.
     
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  20. A well respected man

    A well respected man Some Mother's Son

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    So basically, Dexter tried to transform that distinctive sound that set The Beatles apart into "what everyone else is doing". Great idea... :rolleyes:
     
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  21. NumberEight

    NumberEight Came too late and stayed too long

    Why not just play Side One of each of the UK albums? :)
     
  22. If I Can Dream_23

    If I Can Dream_23 Forum Resident

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    They are good album sides to be sure! But there's not much need when the actual soundtracks are available. And, for me, more true / enjoyable. :)
     
  23. notesfrom

    notesfrom Forum Resident

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    So the MMT album is more 'significant' than the MMT EP? The UK singles are more 'significant' than the US singles? That's a 'brand' of corporate straitjacketing you're subscribing to. There's a larger world out there, honestly.

    Maybe contractually they gave it a pass. From what I've read they were displeased with the singles being on there. Incidentally, the artwork for the LP and the EP were done by a Capitol artist.

    Well, in any case, there's a big fat Capitol album right in the middle of the Beatles' 'canon'-ical album discography (right there in the Stereo box alongside the 1987 1965 album mixes, in the Mono CD box alongside the Stereo '65 mixes, and alongside the ugly Past/Mono Masters sets). That says a lot about Capitol's role in the Beatles' legend. You can run, but you can't hide from the Capitol dome.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2018
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  24. NumberEight

    NumberEight Came too late and stayed too long

    I’m surprised that no-one’s yet mentioned that the first half-dozen albums released by the Beatles on the Liverpool NEMS label were far superior to the versions that ended up being released on the London-based Parlophone label...
     
  25. EdogawaRampo

    EdogawaRampo Senior Member

    Could be. Or not. Considering what was big in 1963, saying the "Early Beatles Sound" didn't cut is to ignore the very hot sellers you mentioned VJ had before. The Four Seasons were one of the biggest acts ever, huge sellers, and they actually did songs originally recorded in 1954 (albeit with updated '60s production). While I love their hits from 1963, their albums, wow. Really very goofy takes on doo-wop chestnuts with huge over-emphasis on "The 'Sound' Of Frankie Valli".

    As for Capitol nailing it, sure, eschewing the '62 and '63 stuff for the launch...hmm. For me personally I Want To Hold Your Hand is a much better single, but She Loves You sounds just as contemporary, so...hmm. Please Please Me, From Me To You, She Loves You ... could have easily all been big hits in the US in 1963 with the right promotion. More than "they were heard." They were rarely heard in 1963. I know someone who says he heard Please Please Me in 1963 but didn't find out until the following the year who did it. He heard it once and the reason he remembered it was because, as he put it, "I thought it was a hot new Everly Brothers record." Richard Carpenter once wrote that he heard From Me To You on an LA station in 1963 and it stuck out in his mind as being nicely melodic, but IIRC, again, he wouldn't know it was a Beatles record until 1964. That says to me scant radio play and lack of promotion -- in a word, resources.

    I've read somewhere that EMI (which owned Capitol) actually forced Capitol's hand or demanded the release of I Want To Hold Your Hand. By that time, The Beatles had already had two or three No. 1 singles and two or three no. 1 EPs in the UK and were selling like hotcakes in Europe, so an alt explanation could be that Capitol wanted to see a bit more staying power than what the Beatles had demonstrated in the first half of 1963 and with Introducing The Beatles. Or, Capitol was still too dumb to see it, and EMI got fed up and simply told Capitol to "do it."

    As for the sound and the production of the early Beatles sounding like 1954, nah, that doesn't hold up. Sure it got much better fairly quickly, but let's look at that in context. Ever heard Last Kiss by J. Frank Wilson and The Cavaliers? No. 2 in November, 1964, probably only kept out of the No. 1 spot by The Supremes. Aside from Love Me Do / P.S. I Love You, most of the rest of the PPM LP sounds like the jet age has arrived by comparison (maybe not A Taste Of Honey, but that's another discussion).

    Pinning The Beatles success on any one factor would be impossible anyway, but it's clear to me a lot more was at work than Dave Dexter, Jr. rejigging track lists, putting his foot down on the reverb pedal and creating new albums out of whole cloth. I think once the 'mania' struck, any track list, any cover photo, and virtually any title that included the group's name would have sold -- Meet The Beatles!, The Beatles Second Album, Volume III, Number 4, Beatles '65, Beatles '65 and a Half...
     
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