Godfather question: Did anybody back home know that Michael got married while he was in Italy?*

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by Vinny123, Jun 7, 2018.

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  1. MikeP5877

    MikeP5877 V/VIII/MCMLXXVII

    Location:
    OH
    Everyone in this thread probably knows about this already but in case not, this DVD on Mr. Cazale is well worth watching. Features interviews with Pacino, Meryl Streep, and others.


    I Knew It Was You - Wikipedia
     
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  2. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

    Location:
    St. Louis
    I agree that Michael lost control of his emotions and understandably so. I also can empathize with how he feels and why he would fly off the handle. I like to think that he isn't quite the psychopath and deep down WAS someone worthy of respect. However, then you look at the rage and his actions after. Nope, my empathy stops there. Time and time again he could have been a human being, and he failed miserably.

    When he kills his brother, that all vanished with me. He is a torn broken man and I ask myself if he was ever a human being at all?

    The flashback is so heartbreaking and where Michael misses the point. I think he is reflecting on his brother, and perhaps has a great deal of regret with not only his decisions, but maybe thinking of his brother sticking up for him by congratulating him. This is where I think the story should have ended and no Godfather III. On the other hand, I think he also stews on feeling alone and perhaps is letting even more bitterness well up inside of him. I even go a step further that he has no appreciation for Fredo and perhaps feels that he is still stupid and is perhaps to blame for even feeling more alone. Maybe he wanted someone to chew him out more. Maybe he was self loathing his entire existence.

    Damn that is a killer final scene in a thousand different ways.

    BUT the other side of me it is like with Star Wars. The first film could have ended the series too and only if I really think that way can I accept it as a worthy sequel. There is the other side of it, where being a Pacino fan, it is the ONLY time Al was bested in a film to me (the original). When I say bested, so much so that it renders him subservient. Brando is that kind of Godzilla like actor. I have never, and I mean NEVER accepted that DeNiro was better or even close to what Brando presented and the second movie is just as low to me. I love it, but it is till a complicated mess that has lots of soap opera like melodrama where the first film is so simple in its execution of the death of a great man.

    You see that is true tragedy. Michael or anyone could never really fill Vito's shoes, and his lack of compassion is his downfall. I think he was dead meat regardless, one way or another

    Don't forget the Conversation. Who has 6 appearances (Godfather Part III archival) and 6 Best Picture nominations? I love the documentary "I Knew It Was You". What a great actor. R.I.P.

    Beat me to it!


    .
     
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  3. Hardy Melville

    Hardy Melville Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York

    The he I referred to was Fredo. He of course knew about the attempt on Michael's life. I an earlier post you posted that he didn't know, which I later understood to mean you were saying Fredo did not know about the attempt IN ADVANCE of its occurring. We were talking about two different things.

    As for the rest I think we basically disagree about at least part of the relationship between Michael and Kay. Imo there is enough indication in Part I that Michael viewed her as a moral person in a way that on some level he wished he could be more like. Given his own "principles" and rules, her decision to have an abortion angered him greatly, for obvious reasons. But her reason for having it I think he knew came from Kay's moral frame of reference, as she literally referred to what she viewed as the greater immorality of continuing the Corleone family. I don't think Michael ever stopped viewing Kay as having that moral sense he wished on some level he could have been more like.

    Feel free to disagree. But that's my view of it.
     
  4. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

    Location:
    St. Louis
    In advance is all that matters to me. Sorry about the confusion. Although I think someone knowing after the fact and being punished about it is stupid. With the way his Michael was, I don't blame anyone for keeping mum on that situation even if I am innocent as to what happened. In retrospect, Fredo was right. That is why he tried to get away....didn't do him any good did it? No matter what he said or Connie said, Michael was killing him.

    While I do disagree, I had an issue about you saying I was somehow contradicting myself, even after my explanation.

    I don't think Michael has any great respect for Kay, and he only deals with her because he has to (as in, he already had a ready made relationship and knows that she gives him less trouble...or so he thinks). He manipulates her, deceives her, assaults her, and keeps her from seeing her children. That speaks nothing of any kind of view that he was aspired to be like her in any way shape or form. Did he ever make a statement that he admired her (I really can't remember and I am open to examples). If he did or anything like it, we know he is a liar to her, we know he hurts her, so am I supposed to believe what he says?

    I don't recall anytime he really showed some great love to her, only more manipulating. Even when he was dancing with her giving her the story about being legit I never...for not one moment, believed him because of what I knew he did in the first movie.

    He flat out lied to her, and it wasn't to protect her, it was to extend what he did when he basically manipulated her back into the car after coming back from Sicily (after almost leaving her for another woman). Respect and admire do not go with his actions to her.
     
  5. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

    Location:
    St. Louis
    Another thing I want to bring up. Kay's questioning Michael's actions about Pentagali's brother being brought it. Once again he lies to Kay saying "it is between the brothers" (or something like that).

    He knows darn well that it is a threat against Frank's brother, children in his care, or just the fact that he was use a family member as leverage.

    Again, not a whole lot of sign of respect or admiration. This is one more cold hard nail drove home that when it comes to Michael, Friends,children, brother...all tools to be used to save his own ass at whatever the cost. Heck, he even uses his stint in the army to make his murdering actions seem legit. Is there no one that Michael won't lie to?

    We already saw that Tom Hagan would be considered in exile just for questioning a decision.
     
  6. agentalbert

    agentalbert Senior Member

    Location:
    San Antonio, TX
    Maybe. Probably even. But it could also be read that seeing his brother shamed Frank into changing his testimony. Talking to the feds and squealing on others in "the family" is probably the worst thing any of these guys could do, and the one thing they tell themselves they will never do no matter what. Didn't Frank talk about how his brother was a big shot in Italy and if he were over here, he'd be head of his own family? That means his brother is in the same line of work. Maybe being a rat in front of his brother was just too much, and it was that (rather than fear for his brothers life) that changed his mind.
     
  7. EddieMann

    EddieMann I used to be a king...

    Location:
    Geneva, IL. USA.
    This was the one thing in the entire two movies that I had trouble understanding. Why does the brother cause Frankie to change his testimony. Your posts here offer two very good possibilities. Thanks!
     
  8. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

    Location:
    St. Louis
    I think it is open to interpretion.

    By the way my theory on a threat to his brother at the hands of Michael I full threw against the wall just today. I swear on it. I never thought about it until debating made me think.
     
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  9. Vinny123

    Vinny123 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
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    I always saw the ‘brothers’ episode as the brother Michael brought in would shame Frank P.
     
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  10. GregM

    GregM The expanding man

    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    I don't think it's open to interpretation at all, and I don't agree with a lot of the sentiment against Michael's character above. The reason the mafia only accepted Sicilian/Italian men into their ranks was because their family could be traced back to the old country where this type of "law" could be meted out. If you were not faithful to the family you served, you would pay with your blood or that of a blood relative. That's just mob rules 101. Both Frankie and Fredo had crossed the line and Michael had to deal with that--not because he was a bad person but because he was the head of a family. Vito would have done the same--Tom Hagan was not Sicilian and not as well versed in the old ways. If you broke your oaths by siding against your family, you were whacked. Didn't matter who you were.
     
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  11. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

    Location:
    St. Louis
    Your opinion. Not saying it is wrong or that I am right. I am saying that Kay understood that he didn't have a whole lotta boundaries when it came to serving himself. Surely with all you disagree with me on, can you really disagree with that?

    Ya don't think there was just a little deception going on?

    And no I don't think Vito woulda wacked his son or brother. Gonna have to agree to disagree strongly on that one.

    With all do respect I think that notion is pure fodder. His mom re-inforces the importance of family and Vito without question was a big part of that.

    Remember Sonny speaking out....remember Sonny no doubt putting some doubts in motion that led to the assination attempt (while Fredo dropped the gun). Michael would have wacked him. Vito cared nowhere near that crazy extent. A bark vs a freakin boat hit. That is the difference. Sorry you fail to see that.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
  12. George Co-Stanza

    George Co-Stanza Forum Resident

    Location:
    America
    Not only that, but in the conversation they had where Michael tells Fredo that he is nothing to him now, Fredo STILL lies to him. When Michael asked him what he knew, Fredo said they had Frank Pentangeli and that is all he could tell him. Only when pressed for more later, did Fredo then reveal that the one Senate lawyer belongs to Roth. That basically told Michael, "how much more does he know and is not telling me?"
     
  13. buzzzx

    buzzzx Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cal.
    Sonny just made a mistake, Fredo committed a betrayal.
     
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  14. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

    Location:
    St. Louis
    I understand your point but just drawing on an example.

    Fredo's situation is obviously a lot more complicated.

    Forgiveness is complicated, kinda like not pressing someone on every detail of how they cheated on you.

    If you love someone, you work it out.
     
  15. GregM

    GregM The expanding man

    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    All mob bosses are self-serving. Kay's notion of family is a far cry from Mrs. Corneone's. If Michael wasn't self-serving, he wouldn't have made a good boss.

    Michael couldn't trust Fredo or Frankie anymore, so they had to go. That's how it works. If you're not loyal to the boss, you have to go.

    Vito was ruthless and merciless against those who betrayed him. That's how he became respected. If anyone in his family stepped out of line they were killed, including Tessio, who was indeed like a brother to Vito--probably closer than Michael and Fredo ever were.

    The 2nd film, as I said earlier in the thread, is about the decay of family in America. You got to see the immigrant leaving the old world where his family had been destroyed, and coming to US with tremendous motivation to create a family. The dynamics reversed in the second movie.

    The difference is that Sonny was just being himself, a hothead--and Fredo a coward, but they didn't actively betray Vito. Fredo actively betrayed Michael in GF2. It wasn't personal, in terms of Michael's retailiation. He had to do it to follow the code and help ensure his family's safety. Fredo had proved himself the kind of liability that could get them all killed.

    This was mob business, not personal. Fredo had stepped way out of line and there could be no going back. The only reason he lasted as long as he did was so Michael didn't break his mom's heart.
     
  16. ohnothimagen

    ohnothimagen "Live music is better!"

    Location:
    Canada
    I think Fredo did secretly harbour resentment towards Michael over being "passed over"- maybe not outright hate necessarily, but I'm sure Fredo knew what would happen if something happened to Mike, Fredo would become the Don by default. A classic case of "que bono?" (who benefits?)
    Oh, I'm sure Al Neri and Lampone knew not to f--k Michael around over anything even without Fredo's death. He didn't need to kill Fredo to ensure their loyalty. They knew that nasty things tended to happen to people who messed with the Corleones...hell, that's why they were there in the first place!
    A helluva career, no question about it.
    Like I said, I was convinced Michael was going to have Tom whacked as well just for questioning Michael's actions- I'm sure Michael looked upon that as a bit of a betrayal in itself.
    I think it went further than that. Omerta. Frankie saw his brother sitting there at the hearing and knew he'd better keep his g-ddamn mouth shut or else he was dead man, possibly even at his bro's hands.
     
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  17. Paulette

    Paulette Forum Resident

    No. Tommasino would not say anything. He may not have even known.
    Michael would never tell anyone because Michael communicates about nothing but business.
    I think he loved Apollonia more than Kay.
    To me, Kay suited his facade.
     
  18. Paulette

    Paulette Forum Resident

    I have always thought of it more as shame. To these guys shame is worse than death.
     
  19. George Co-Stanza

    George Co-Stanza Forum Resident

    Location:
    America
    Fredo never really gave Michael the respect the boss deserves once he became the Don. In the Moe Greene scene in I, when they first get to the hotel room, Fredo says, "Anything you want, kid." Kid? That showed that Fredo still viewed Michael as his little brother, a kid, not the boss, and that was reinforced during the Moe Greene disagreement when he tried to get Tom to talk to Vito about it, showing again that he had no respect for Michael as the Don.
     
  20. Phil147

    Phil147 Forum Resident

    Location:
    York UK
    Yes it was 'business, not personal' even in matters of blood relations. Vito would have had to do the same.

    But then Vito never faced this dilemma (not in what we see in the films anyway) as he had complete loyalty from his family, both blood and business relations. He earned that loyalty and returned that loyalty over many years earning mutual respect as it went along.
    Make no mistake though, anyone who did step out of line would have been dealt with. In that world it is the only way to keep the respect and the loyalty, as long as it follows the 'Mafia code'.
    You can see evidence of this at the meeting of the 5 families when he says that if anything should happen to Michael on his way home from Sicily 'then I'm going to blame some of the people in this room. And that, I do not forgive' he was deadly serious and those in the room knew he was and respected that as he would have demonstrated in the past what happened to people when they crossed him.
     
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  21. Phil147

    Phil147 Forum Resident

    Location:
    York UK
    Everybody except Vito and probably Tom underestimated Michael. For some that proved to be fatal, others who showed loyalty and trust benefited.

    I think Fredo suffered from a lack of respect in himself, it must always have been in his mind that he failed to protect his father when he was gunned down in front of him and that the rest of the family might blame him for it. He gets shipped off to Nevada, out of the way, and falls under the spell of Moe Greene and rightly or wrongly in Michael's eyes (and I would assume by very definition also Vito's) he sides with Moe (whose Casino bankrolled by the Corleone family is losing money).
    So quite apart from been seen to be 'taking sides' by sticking up for Moe in the hotel room I would think he was also annoying Michael and Vito by not either keeping Moe under control and stopping the casino losing money or at least bringing this directly to their attention. I can't remember if the novel goes into any of that or if I'm just purely taking this from my own speculation.
     
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  22. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

    Location:
    St. Louis
    And that SHOULD be the advantage of family. Fredo had lots of issues, and a big part of it was being a weaker person. I imagine Michael taking over was a mountain that he would have a hard time ever overcoming. I don't think there is any truly right or wrong answers.

    BUT, let us back it up just a bit. Michael is all about coming in and taking control, he loves to surprise people. Matter of fact, he doesn't even give a rats ass about how anyone feels about his decision. Couldn't he have clued in Fredo just a bit? Fredo has been working for this man how long and not only does he make hostile atmosphere, but he flat out humiliates Fredo in a thousand ways (like the power trip of calling out Moe for slapping around in front of Fredo....gee Mikey, you think that might castrate an already put off brother that had enough issues?).

    I don't think Michael really cared about his brother getting slapped around, he just didn't mind using it as a bargaining chip. That is what Michael is all about. Hell even giving Fredo the reprimand in front of Tom and however else, when Fredo was trying to make peace with someone he felt close to (and is that really hard to imagine when Fredo has basically been prostituted out for how long??).

    When Michael says...he loves him but....I don't buy "love" for one second that he actually means it. Sure he has some feelings that a brother has for another, but I have seen it with my own eyes where a younger brother does not give a crap about his siblings and only has some gestures out of respect. I believe Sonny protecting him was about the closest thing I really saw, and I am not saying that he felt nothing.

    Yes, like normal people.

    I don't think he was a good boss, and the film gives no indication that he was one. Oh sure, he mastered inheriting power and cutting everyone's throat basically tearing down every personal relationship cultivated by his father, but good boss...NO. Just my opinion.

    Sorry cannot agree with this. Fredo could have been rehabilitated because he is family and I believe he showed remorse. Of course it would take some love from someone who is not a borderline psychopath. Even Tom and Connie stressed that Fredo was scared and felt that he was dead meat (and he was right). A loving brother would give a pass in some way shape or form. Vito wouldn't have done in it, and I call BS on any notion that he would.

    Agree to disagree. Tessio may have been close, but more than his own kids? Sorry, just don't agree. As for Sonny and my example. I am not saying that Sonny's behavior was equal to Fredo's, but I used it as an example of Vito's compassion. I do not think Michael would have given that kind of path.

    Let us compared the two and this is where I do feel they are equal.

    Vito was conducting business with Sollozzo (which I argue was just as important as a Moe Green decision) and Sonny opened his yap. He questioned in front of Vito (even if on his side) and basically puts himself as an equal negotiator. This is complete and utter disrespect. Not to mention Sonny is actually talking about how another family thinks...WTF?? Call it a "hothead", I call it very very very risky behavior.

    So how does Vito handle it (and me rehashing this is not a put down because I know you know the film well, I just want to state my view). First he stops the problem immediately and plays it off to save face by basically calling him a child that doesn't know any better. This establishes dominance, and more importantly that he telling Sollozzo that he is not a threat. Of course it doesn't work, but you still gotta applaud the effort. Truth be told, Sonny shouldn't have been there, but I don't think Vito really grasped how sticky it was becoming. I am sure if he had to do it all over again it would have been different...hind sight...

    Next, he tells Sonny to think before speaking and that he is basically talking like an idiot. BUT if you look closely, he calls him over and does it at least semi-private. Tom is consigliere so it is understandable why he stays back...that and the Johnny Fontaine flowers/hourse head status update. lol

    Compare that with Michael. Not only does he not do it in any private respect manner, but worse he doesn't call him an idiot, doesn't play it off as just stupid....but he alienates Fredo and says that he is taking sides against the family??? WTF???

    Sorry, but your brother is very personal, and there are limits with normal people. Michael was nothing like his father, and it is painfully clear by the end of the Godfather II. Even though Marlon Brando wasn't in the scene (and didn't want to be), it didn't matter. How separate he was, was so clear that the fact that they are no longer even in the same frame of reference shows that not only does he not care to face his father or the decisions and hug his old man, but he doesn't even do it for the face of the entire family. That is Michael, and that is why he is alone....well save for a few body guard thugs.

    As for my comment about Frank's brother, respect....threat, does it really matter whether you agree or disagree with it being open for interpretation? The point is that when it comes to Michael, there is no line like that he won't cross because family is never his first priority.

    Which going back to Fredo, like Frank's brother and Frank, they were treated like tools/employees to be used instead of loved or respected.

    I don't think Vito was deep into any of these decisions. What is clear is that there was not a lot of care into what Fredo was doing at all. I didn't see him as some great tool that was respected by the family, or that they needed or wanted Fredo as any kind of key figure.

    If they did, they would have snapped him back in line and would have known he was banging cocktail waitresses instead. Out of all the calculating, the one thing that never made sense to me, is putting your brother/son in that kind of position knowing what he was.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2018
  23. Grunge Master

    Grunge Master 8 Bit Enthusiast

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  24. Luke The Drifter

    Luke The Drifter Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    They set it up well for the death of Fredo. The lack of respect to Michael as Don. The bumbling. Mo Greene. Ola.

    But where I think Michael was wrong (from a mafia perspective, obviously everything they do is wrong by normal moral standards), was that Fredo had been neutralized as a threat. He was content to be the kindly old uncle and out of the business. There was no need to kill him at that point.
     
  25. Luke The Drifter

    Luke The Drifter Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    I think Fredo comes off terribly in the Moe Greene scene, and I find no fault with Michael’s actions. This was before Michael was as far gone as he was later in Part 2. Fredo made the Corleone’s look like fools by his actions in Nevada. Then in the meeting he indeed took Moe’s side. That would not have flown with Vito either. Michael showed Greene who was in charge by calling him out for slapping his brother. He told Fredo clearly in private not to do it again. I see no problem with either.
     
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