I Think the GR is the cooking version and I'm guessing the G is really that much better. Don't expect any DD to sound as romantic as the Linn. Your Linn is from the highly coloured era especially in terms of bass. Obviously in terms of relative price (allowing for inflation) the GR is much cheaper. The one I heard in an all technics dem failed to over impress me much but that might have been held back in that context. I didn't hear anything on that occasion that suggested it was a lot better than my PLX 1000 (used as a back up deck). I'm surprised you think the Linn of that era accurate because it certainly isn't. I remember finding the cheaper Axis (slightly later around 1988) to be more neutral in presentation. The GR is obviously a good deck around £1000+ but the superlatives and favourable comparisons with expensive high end TTs have been from those using the G. I think some have wrongly suggested that GR and G sound close probably influenced by the fact they can't stretch to the more expensive model. I think you need to get a G to compare but would also suggest a revamp of the Linn using third party components such as the Sole subchassis. Linns upgrades these days bring it to a far higher price level and it wouldn't surprise me if the G got close to the Klimax Lp12 with the right cartridge and careful set up. Now I'm still waiting for comparisons of the 1000R to similarly priced decks to the Klimax. In the end you might just prefer the belt drive sound anyway but there are far better examples than Linn and at prices not far in excess of the 1200G.
Bob_in_OKC, I'm another enthusiastic SL1200G owner but please note my comment in #25 of this thread relating to the Anniversary LP12 (+$40K): ....my friend bought the anniversary version of the LP12/Kandid which replaced a 30+ year old Sondek....I must say that it manages to track LPs that display sibilance on every other turntable I have listened to which is impressive..... This includes my own Technics, using a variety of high end MM cartridges. The word 'better' is misused frequently in this hobby whereas 'different' is more reflective of personal preferences.
Yes, that Eminent Technology 2 parallel tracker means quite a deviation from a standard Linn. It contributes to what TarnishedEars hears & the preferences he and his wife express.
I certainly recognize that the arm match is critical. Perhaps with a well matched cartridge I might have a very different experience. But the two other carts that I tested it with (which should been a good match for the arm) were both very disappointing sonically. So I used a known superb-sounding cartridge (and the only cartridge for which I own a spare), as my basis for detailed comparison between the two machines. I used CDs as a reference, because IMO if a good TT can't subjectively pull me into the music at least as much as an excellent CD player can, then there is no point in listening to it. My Linn succeeds in this regard, despite its obvious colorations. But the 1200GR completely failed in this comparison with all 3 cartridges that I tested it with. It removed low-level ambient info and musical nuances that I was able to clearly hear on both my Linn and my CD player. The CD player was specifically included because I figured that it is less-colored than the Linn, and that this would be a fairer comparison with less colored machine. And since I could clearly hear this ambient info, and low-level detail, on the CD, not just my Linn, means that this wasn't something that was being artificially manufactured by my Linn, but that this was in fact being obscured by the 1200GR. The technics appeals to me in terms of is engineering, simplicity of setup, and its reliability. But if it can't close the deal sonically, then none of the other bits matter. I'm still very curious if the G has these same sonic deficiencies or not. But considering how everyone says that they can't hear much of a difference between these machines, I'm suspecting that these are not nearly as wonderful sounding as everybody keeps claiming. My attempts to solicit some input on more appropriate headshells for my cartridges were largely derided as silly an unnecessary tweaks by many of you guys. But I still suspect that a better headshell might have improved the match to the arm.
I never said that I couldn't hear the colorations of my Linn. That is why I also used a CD player, as a hopefully much more objective measure for some of my comparison. But the GR fell sonically short against each of these in my comparisons. And this I consider to be both unacceptable, and surprising considering how much praise has been heaped upon these units.
IMO my DAC sounds in many ways more "analog" than does my GR. To me great analog has always exceeded digital in terms of it ambient retrieval, 3-D soundstage, and smoothness. The technics sounds raw, lacking in both ambience and detail, 2-D and also somewhat harsh in the midrange when compared to my Direct Stream DAC. And IMO if a TT can't outperform my DAC in terms of what good analog is best-at, then what is the point of even listening to the TT? And FWIW: my Linn had none of these deficiencies. So even despite its obvious colorations, it walked all over my GR.
I listened briefly at a local shop. But I could not get a good enough idea of how it actually sounded until I had it inside of my own system. However I purchased it knowing that I could return it if I was unhappy with it. And since I'm still well inside of the return-window for this purchase, I presently plan-on retuning it.
Masochism was never the reason. Believe it or not, this is an absolutely fantastic sounding combo. But it is indeed a real PITA to setup, unfortunately.
I think your suspicions are wrong. Perhaps others genuinely enjoy a more accurate to the master standard of reproduction... It’s nothing to do with inaccuracy of claims. You get more enjoyment subjectively from the way the LP12 portrays things, and that’s great! Enjoy the music and end the search
Was teasing you, given that both devices are known to require some knowledge in set up to maximize potential and mounting the ET on a suspended table probably adds an additional element of "fun." I had an ET2 quite a while ago, currently use another linear tracking arm- I like the presentation it gives. PS: I don't doubt that it sounds great.
Reexamine your logic. That is why I used the CD as a reference for comparisons here, not just my Linn. In direct comparison between the GR with several different CDs, The GR was 2-D, lacking in ambience, and lacking low-level resolution when compared to the CDs, while the Linn suffered from none of these issues. This means that these qualities are not something that my Linn was adding to the performance, but were something that the GR was removing. Yes, I recognize that the midbass warmth of the Linn is a coloration. But that did not play into my evaluation of the GR, and in fact this counted against my Linn. But perhaps the G does not suffer from the other afflictions which I have noted with the GR. Unfortunately I may never know since I have no way of hearing one in my system without buying it first.
Trying to evaluate turntables in a meaningful way is very difficult, short of having them set up in your own place, and trying to eliminate the variables of arm, cartridge and set up. Not easy. I doubt many dealers are able to offer these comparisons except to the limited extent they stock and support multiple brands and are willing to dedicate two tables, with identical arms and cartridges to the effort. Even then, I'd bet the dealer reaches a conclusion, and decides to offer the one they prefer (leaving aside such sordid things as profit margin). Trying to do this remotely, theoretically or by memory is, in my estimation, impossible. On arms and cartridges, there is a fair amount of anecdotal information that you can probably rely upon, but how the combination sounds in a given system is up for grabs. Synergy plus listener preference have a role in this too.
The stock Technics headshell is extremely good. It is manufactured with precision, it is accurately (azimuth) aligned from the factory, electrically quiet, it is completely rigid, and it doesn't resonate. There are plenty of third-party headshells that are technically better using more expensive materials and methods. Whether or not any of those third-party headshells makes an audible difference is debatable. I've got a drawer full of third-party headshells that I've used with a wide variety of cartridges on my SL1200G but I can't say for sure that a single one of them made a positive (or even any) difference. Some of them sure do look nice though, and I particularly like the look of the Fidelix Mitchaku (absurdly pricey it is too). Nobody has ever derided as silly your considerations about third-party headshells. All that some members suggested was that their (more extensive than your) experience with the SL1200 had helped them understand that the stock headshell is very good. You asked for opinions and you got them. You got listening results that helped you make a decision. Your system, your listening room, your preferred music, and most important of all your sense of hearing. As I've insisted before, there's no bad decision amongst a well set up LP12, an SL1200G, a Rega P6 or RP8 and some others. The ears get the final vote, which is why a number of members have chimed in that they're extremely satisfied with their LP12 turntables and that they're not making a change. There's no argument here. To my ears, the SL1200G has no sonic deficiencies. Then again, neither does my very carefully set up LP12/Akito. The turntables sound quite different from one another. With respect too, it's also possible that your SL1200G cartridge installation was off. The results you reported with an SL1200GR are not widely experienced at all except by individuals who've inaccurately set up a cartridge and/or who've incorrectly loaded the cartridge. Or maybe your setup was spot on and you really just didn't like the audio output of the SL1200GR and your Monster Alpha Genesis 1000 cart. It's too bad you're stuck with your excellent LP12 and that temperamental (but excellent) Well Tempered tonearm.
Agitater, thank you for your advice on headshells. I have a 1200GR on order right now, that should be arriving this week. It has saved me from audiophoolery. I am coming from a 16 year old Rega P3-2000 that I have tweaked to no end. Including an OL RB 250 arm, after market platter , after market pulley, a butcher block stand with rubber/cork feet. I am buying it as a last TT, as I will be retiring in a few years and want to end the tweaking even though my subconscious is still bothering me with what if I do this?
I lightly skimmed a lot of the posts following up to this post, but I wanted to say thank you for posting and sharing your findings. There really is nothing better than plugging a TT into your system in your home to compare. If you do decide to give the G a spin, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that comparison as well.
I had a Radikal Majik Linn LP12 and replaced it with the Technics SL1200G. Same cartridge on both, just swapped round when the Technics turned up. The LP12 was twice the price and not as good to my ears: Slightly warmer presentation and more romantic sounding, agreed, but not accurate reproduction. I have found the 1200G to be astounding but it took careful setting up......I stuck with the original headshell but installed some 7n copper headshell leads which made a big difference to my ears. Interestingly, I found a felt mat to be much nicer sounding than the Technics rubber mat too.
Your last sentence is one of the funnier things I’ve read this year! I’m going to use it elsewhere if you don’t mind. Thankfully (or perhaps not - sorry), KAB Electro Acoustics and other third-party suppliers will be hanging out and ready and waiting to feed whatever upgrade urge gets the better of you. The SL1200GR/G/GAE tweaks and accessories are already starting to appear on the KAB web site. The first major one is a silicone fluid-based tonearm damping trough. I mean, what would the dedicated audiophile and music lover do without the Technics SL1200/1200GR/G/GAE tweakers, the Linn LP12 tweakers, and Rega RP3/RP6/P3/P6 tweakers. It’s a very serious little cottage industry without a doubt. I really liked the Origin Live-tweaked RB250 tonearm. It’s still in wide use. The better Origin Live wiring, better headshell clips and a better ground significantly elevated an already good tonearm. The P3-2000 was a wonderful turntable, but the SL1200GR is mechanically quieter, the tonearm is better than the OL-upgraded RB250, speed accuracy, stability and consistency is remarkably better than the P3-2000, and almost every single adjustment (arm lift height, arm height/VTA, VTF, bias/anti-skate, etc.) are at your fingertips without contortions. As important as anything else, the GR sounds good. I think that with such a wide choice of superb cartridges available these days (and plenty of spare Technics headshells to be purchased of course), the SL1200GR is a wonderful choice. Install your cartridge of choice carefully and accurately and you’ll never look back. And, my oh my, what will SL1200GR/G/GAE owners do when the first well designed tonearm replacement kit shows up? It’s a conspiracy (to separate us from our money).
Great post as usual. I really appreciate your very thoughtful replys. It is certainly possible that I didn't get the VTA absolutely perfect on the GR since I didn't spend a whole lot of time on that adjustment. However the loading is not an issue since both TTs were fed into exactly the same transformer, with the same loading settings. And the tracking force was set the same on both TTs. So those were not a variables in my experiment. And actually I have an ET-2 tonearm (not a well tempered arm, although I know somebody with one of these on a Linn), which is an air-bearing linear-tracking arm, featuring changeable arm wands. It was the changeable arm wands and the easy to replicate VTA which sold me on this arm 30 year ago. These same features on the Technics appeal greatly to me, minus all of the fiddlyness of the Linn and ET-2 arm. I wish that I could hear a G. Because the descriptions that all of you guys keep making make it sound like it is as close to perfect as one can get. I only know now that the GR is a very long way from that description.
Seems as though there should be an SL1200G to properly audition at a shop somewhere in SeaTac. Then again, you’ve got a great turntable and tonearm already that you really enjoy. If your LP12 power supply is providing and maintaining stable and accurate speed, I’m not sure that you’ll ever hear an SL1200GR/G/GAE that will really grab you and take your attention away from the great setup you’ve already got. I won’t trade my LP12 away because I’ve now got an SL1200G - they’re different and they both do a superb job of playing music.
Clearly, TarnishedEars was motivated to try out another turntable for the reason you highlight. However, my question is still perfectly valid. Did he have to commit himself to the new turntable before he was able to ascertain how it sounded in comparison to his own deck? I'd be reluctant to make a purchase on that basis. If you look at his reply, you'll see that the store will allow return of the new deck after he's tried it out at home. That seems a satisfactory alternative to the in store comparison that I would have expected if I was purchasing the turntable.
Nice experiment and well written- sounds like you had fun! With respect to the results, the "peculiar" bass, lack of low level detail and sound stage / ambiance retrieval you experienced on the Technics table are most likely a combination of cartridge /tonearm miss-match- which could minimized with a different platter mat that would better damp the resonances- or eliminated completely with a better cartridge match with the arm. It seems as if the 'GR is more finicky than the 'G when it comes to less than an ideal arm to cartridge pairing. Yes, the Lynn is most certainly a romantic, lush sounding turntable which is a common characteristic of them and others of similar type. The main value of the G and GR IMHO is their dynamic capability and forceful drive which really adds life to the music and completely eliminates the tired sound you occasionally hear with many turntables. I am very surprised you didn't notice this.
I would love to hear your impressions once you've set up the Technics! I'm in a similar position: P3-24 with after market platter and sub-platter, looking at a 1200G as the next upgrade. I like the "form follows function" design, ease of use and solid build quality, but as someone said elsewhere in the thread, the sound trumps all.
