Better Call Saul - Season Four Discussion & Digestion

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by EVOLVIST, Jul 25, 2018.

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  1. mpayan

    mpayan A Tad Rolled Off

    I think Lalo is just as determined to right the wrong done to the Salamanca name as Gus is to do away with it. But Lalo has flare. Gus is a blue flame.
     
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  2. Thomas D

    Thomas D Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bradenton, FL
    Mike didn't seek out that scene. Gus lured him into it by giving him tasks not involving killing and seeming to respect Mike's reluctance to kill. As this season went on it became clearer that Gus was starting to get annoyed with Mike's reluctance to kill any of the Germans, and so it was a sort of bait and switch on Mike. That difference in the eagerness to kill is a big difference between Gus and Mike. The Germans were about as close to "civilians" as you can get, in that they knew they were doing something shady, but didn't know what and they were really pretty naive, basically good, people and they just wanted to get paid and get out of there. Mike hated the idea of killing any of them while Gus was happy with the idea and needed to be constrained by Mike.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2018
  3. Brian_Svoboda

    Brian_Svoboda Senior Member

    Location:
    Virginia
    Is anyone else not finding last night’s episode on iTunes? It is a bad time for Apple to drop the ball!
     
  4. BEAThoven

    BEAThoven Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Jersey
    For clarity, didn't Mike get into this scene when Gus and crew foiled his plan to murder Hector Salamanca with sniper shot (the "don't" message and all that...)? How did Gus lure him into it? Gus approached Mike after he realized Mike was willing and quite able to kill Hector (but that shot would have been "too humane" or some such...)

    Do we really know what Gus' intention is for the German crew? We only know how Gus deals with "disloyal" members of the German crew.
     
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  5. George Co-Stanza

    George Co-Stanza Forum Resident

    Location:
    America
    Really good finale. I thought the season dragged at times, but it ended on a good note.

    What struck me about the last scene is that Jimmy was so jubilant with the con he just pulled that he was completely oblivious to Kim’s reaction.

    Many hated Chuck, but when it’s all said and done, everything he said about Slippin’ Jimmy was correct.
     
  6. nosticker

    nosticker Forum Guy

    Location:
    Ringwood, NJ
    I think that the Mike/Werner scene was incredibly emotional. It took a while for him to see that he was not going home, and that whole process was just heartbreaking; my girlfriend actually cried and I had to pause the DVR. The only thing I could offer, other than comfort, was "Remember: these are not good people," as I consoled her. I felt bad for Werner, almost in a Marty Byrde way: he got caught up in something that was clearly not his world.


    Dan
     
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  7. Thomas D

    Thomas D Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bradenton, FL
    Mike was after Hector because Hector had threatened his family and had shot a civilian who happened upon Mike's first robbery of a Salamanaca truck (the cash inside the tires). The shooting of that civilian affected Mike deeply, because he had been involved in creating the situation. Mike's sniper effort fit in with an understandable code of justice - avenge family/keep civilians out of it. When Gus and Mike first met, Gus said he sympathized with Mike's code, and asked if he'd do another robbery. Mike agreed (the shoe-hanging-from-a-wire caper). Mike realized Gus respected his code (based on what Gus said) and went ahead with that in mind. Werner was a borderline civilian - just a naive guy who knew he was in something shady, but didn't know what, who acted stupidly. Mike knew this. Gus must have known he was pushing Mike into new territory. Mike had to either kill or be killed - this was way too borderline insofar as his code.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2018
  8. EVOLVIST

    EVOLVIST Kid A Thread Starter

    You bring up some good points, just as @BEAThoven did.

    I do not, however, think that Gus imagined that he was pushing Mike into "new territory." Consider that Gus must have reckoned that he was pushing Mike into older territory: one that Mike had already been acquainted with at one time. Killing for the "boss," whomever that may be.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2018
  9. BEAThoven

    BEAThoven Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Jersey
    Werner is a borderline case because we "know" him, his personality, and his relationship with Mike. What does Gus know about him? Gus sees a hired, well-paid employee/supervisor who:
    • Is out at bars vaguely talking to random strangers about the design of a meth lab for a major drug cartel (!).
    • Was warned by the "underboss" about the consequences of those actions.
    • Devised an elaborate plan to "escape" from his work commitments and went MIA.
    • Absentmindedly got on the phone with an adversary and started revealing details about Gus' masterplan.
    From Gus' perspective, I could see how he would logically reason that this guy had to go -- What is the next "mistake" that Werner will make? As Sam Rothstein in Casino would say: "He was either in on it or he was too dumb to see what was going on."
     
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  10. balzac

    balzac Senior Member

    I think someone else may have alluded to this already, but they've never done "follow-ups" on Gene in the season finales. The "Gene" scenes have always been one scene at the front of the season premiere. So the deal with "Gene" scenes has always been the assumption that once that scene ends, you have to wait a full year (or more!) for a follow-up. And it was only Season 3 and 4 where they kind of ended the "Gene" scene on a cliffhanger of sorts.

    They discussed a season or two back that they'd like to do a full Gene episode at some point, so that's the only way we're probably ever getting more Gene, other than perhaps something in a series finale. My best guess would be a "standalone" full Gene episode (as in *not* a series finale) would perhaps still be placed at the very front of a season.

    As for the karaoke scene, I think it was absolutely in line with the tone of any number of previous flashbacks. Many if not most of the flashbacks involving Jimmy and Chuck haven't tended to involve big "a ha!" moments where a huge detail is revealed. They've usually just been little morsels to depict an aspect of their relationship. They've sometimes also juxtaposed against whatever happens in the body of the episode. In this case, Chuck vouches for Jimmy when he gets his bar card, and then at the end of the episode Jimmy is vouching for himself and using Chuck to do it.

    As for the song being terrible, I think most TV shows and movies depict with what I can guess is a fair degree of realism that most people sound awful when doing karaoke, and often pick big torch songs or other overplayed, super-well-known songs. They frankly went a bit more obscure on Jimmy's pick than, say, Ernesto's.

    It was nice to get a quick glimpse of Ernesto, even if only via flashback. I've been wondering all season if he'll ever resurface. He probably should have sued HHM for wrongful termination.
     
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  11. sberger

    sberger Dream Baby Dream

    Geez the song pretty much sums all the relationships that Jimmy has been in(Chuck, Kim, his professional life) that have meant anything to him, that he see's as having failed him. And that winning at all costs is really the only game in town.

    "I was in your arms
    Thinking I belonged there
    I figured it made sense
    Building me a fence
    Building me a home
    Thinking I'd be strong there
    But I was a fool
    Playing by the rules"
     
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  12. balzac

    balzac Senior Member

    Still wondering if Jimmy will ever tell Kim about his last meeting with Chuck, and what Chuck said. While it wouldn't excuse everything, it would probably help her quite a bit in understanding Jimmy's attitude towards Chuck after Chuck's death.
     
  13. Greg Smith

    Greg Smith Forum Resident

    Superb finale, the cinematography in that final Mike shot was stunning.
    Could easily have been the last episode so glad it isn't.
     
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  14. EVOLVIST

    EVOLVIST Kid A Thread Starter

    Yes, it could have been the series finale/last episode if the show was only for fans of Breaking Bad. But since the showrunners are knocking themselves out to make BCS standalone, at the same time dovetailing into Breaking Bad, an ending like this would be a fail in the grand scheme of things.

    That said, I don't know how much longer the show can sustain itself, even though I was hoping for 6 seasons. It looks like it's going to be an extra long Season 5, between 13-20 episodes. That seems about right. However, if they split the season into 2 years, like they did with Breaking Bad, I would bust a blood vessel. That's just cruel.

    If they must split up the last season into two chunks, the best thing to do is make it like The Walking Dead, creating two-halves of 8, with 3 months in the middle.

    What they did with Season 5 of BB was just brutal.
     
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  15. balzac

    balzac Senior Member

    They could easily do several more seasons of BCS if they wanted to. They're only up to 2004 (and that's after a time jump, so the first 3.75 seasons took place over not much more than a year apparently), and BB starts at about 2008. Couple that with the possibility of a bit more "Gene" (at least one standalone episode possibly), and I could easily see them getting 6 or 7 seasons out of this, especially if they're going to stick to 10 episodes per season.

    Has there been any official word of Season 5 being longer? I'm curious what indicators there are that it will be longer. I guess I don't care whether it's a "Season 5" and "Season 6" each with 10 episodes versus a "Season 5" with 20 episodes. Either is fine.

    I would guess there's no way they'll do anything billed as a *single* season that includes 20 episodes.

    I could picture two halfs of 6 or 8 amounting to 12 to 16 episodes. I honestly have no idea if they feel Season 5 is it. I certainly hope not.
     
  16. EVOLVIST

    EVOLVIST Kid A Thread Starter

    When will Better Call Saul end? We asked the showrunners
     
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  17. balzac

    balzac Senior Member

    Thanks for the link. Interesting. I would have to guess even if they did shoot 20 episodes in a row, they might break that up into two seasons for airing. Kind of sad that we probably won't get more than 20. I don't think they should run it into the ground, either. I never expected like 120 episodes or something. But I think they could easily bring the count up to around 70, so three seasons of 10 eps or two seasons of 15. But I'll take what I can get.
     
  18. mpayan

    mpayan A Tad Rolled Off

    I think 20-25 more episodes would be perfect. Two or three for the Nacho storyline. Five with an emphasis on Mike more so. The Cartel/Jimmy connection for 2 or 3. One and half for Gene. Then the rest mainly on Jimmy Kim Howard Mesa Verde etc etc. Three-five that are Jimmy heavy. Who knows though.

    6 seasons? If season 5 is killer, sure. But honestly I dont think more than that is going to invite my investment.
     
  19. Tim S

    Tim S Senior Member

    Location:
    East Tennessee
    One thing to keep in mind about one or more Gene episodes is there aren't really any characters at all there other than Jimmy. What exactly are you gonna do with Gene over that much time? If they can manage it, I'd certainly be ok with it and it SEEMS like whatever the series ending is it should be with Gene.
     
  20. Tim S

    Tim S Senior Member

    Location:
    East Tennessee
    I was totally wrong about the location of the warehouse where the Germans lived. I still think it doesn't match up at all with the chicken farm and they just cheated a little on that by restricting the camera angles in this last episode - but it's their show and if they say it's the chicken farm, so, to horribly misquote ABBA "it's theirs to decide, the likes of me abide."
     
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  21. Tim S

    Tim S Senior Member

    Location:
    East Tennessee
    One thing we've never seen Mike do is flat out lie, so I'm gonna assume that when he assured Werner the crew would be paid and sent home safely he wasn't just trying to make Werner's last few minutes on earth a little less painful. Can't be sure, but that's my take.

    How terrible for Warner that the only way he can save his wife is to die knowing that last she will remember of him is a heated argument - and one that she will never really understand.

    I was truly surprised at the depth of Werner's naivete. That he thought he could return to the site after a few days away and resume work is almost crazy.
    could his initial warning have been any clearer? I'm sorry Werner, I grew to like you, but you dug your own hole on this one. RIP
     
  22. decipher

    decipher Active Member

    Location:
    IN
    Such a powerful portray of emotion, he knew Micheal will handle the situation just like a real good friend. But he was so naive to sense the real threat.
    The dialog, "i will go there and walk with the start" just killed me....

    I wasn't expecting this at all.
    For me last scenes of Werner Ziegler was so emotional that it shadowed Jimmy's victory at end.
    I expected a happy ending but im very sad :(
     
  23. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

    I kept expecting for one of two things happening:

    1) the state DA realizes that Kim futzed with the plans on the Mesa Verda building, and not only disbars her but also puts her in jail for fraud

    2) Kim gets into some kind of horrific mess and kills herself or otherwise dies.

    And instead, what we got was Kim's quiet realization that the Jimmy she thought she knew is really not that guy at all.

    Mike may believe that's what's going to happen, but I don't think that will be their fate. Note that Gus Fring has chemist Gale on staff now, so he could very well tell him, "hey, we need to get rid of 12 bodies, and I want you to use enough chemicals that there won't ever be any evidence left anywhere." I bet a dozen bathtubs of hydrofluoric acid would do the job nicely. :sigh:
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2018
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  24. Borgia

    Borgia Do not speak wisely of this night

    Location:
    Arkansas
    I don't see the rest of the crew going home to Germany now. How does Mike explain Werner's disappearance to them & make it sound plausible? "Hey guys, Werner decided to go back to the old country." For all Mike or Fring knows some of these guys on the crew could be related to Werner, or have worked with him for years and know his wife. Too many loose ends here. Werner obviously made a mistake in taking such a job, not realizing who he was dealing with, but Fring & Mike made a mistake by hiring civilians. They should have went with the other guy who said he had dug tunnels for the cartel. At least he would have understood who he was working for.
    As for Kim, another well played scene at the end. She is also to partly to blame for her fate, much like Werner was. She helped create, or give an outlet to this new Jimmy, to unleash him. What fate awaits her?
     
  25. George Co-Stanza

    George Co-Stanza Forum Resident

    Location:
    America
    In their argument last week, Kim said that maybe next time she won't answer when Jimmy calls needing help. I could see that being foreshadowing to the current day where Gene's true identity gets outed and he calls Kim for help. But will she answer/call him back...??
     
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