Looking for a vintage (japanese) direct drive

I only have (suspended) belt drive turntables at the moment, I use an upgraded Thorens td160 as my everyday deck.
I'm thinking about getting a vintage direct drive quality table to add. It would be a nice addition and easier to use with my 12" (and 7") 45rpm's.

At the moment I'm looking at :
1. Kenwood kd550
2. Pioneer pl71

Manual or automatic doesn't really matter, but I would prefer manual as there is less to go wrong.
Qualities I'm looking for : reliability, a pretty good stock arm, very good 'sonic' qualities... I'm not interested in swapping arms, upgrading etc... (Well apart from getting a fitting cartridge of course).

As I'm not really 'at home' with these decks, I'm hoping to get some good suggestions/advice here. I'm in Europe, if that matters as some models might differ from yours.
Also I should let you know that I'm not interested in Technics as I just don't like the look of them, sorry
So are there any other models out there that I should be looking at ?

 

Well Technics is still maybe the best bet. And if the 1200 style bothers you, they do make less different designs.

 

Maybe the new 1500C might be an option?

 

So is your priority / intention how the TT looks or how it sounds? This sentence makes it tough to make any recs -- many are good at making recs based on overall sound quality, reliability, features... but looks are so subjective.

 

1980 Sansui SR-838. It's outrageous. TOTL

or/ 1979 Sansui SR-929 which is super fine. TOTL.

These two are Sansui's TOTL TTs. I own & prefer the 838. Some folks prefer the 929. Both are equal in quality but look very different. Both are DD, manual, SUPER reliable, outstanding 'S' shaped stock arm, perfect 'sonic' qualities... and very heavy with very heavy platters. Vibrations don't mean anything to the 838. The 838 is LARGER than most TTs but the 929 is even larger. Both are equally extremely well made. My 838 is 39 years old and doesn't even skip a beat. Rock solid. Both most Excellent and a total joy to own.

Note: If you do desire to purchase one... make sure it has the original aluminum, Azimuth adjustable, headshell which alone sells for $75 and is very hard to find! Like all top quality TTs, they don't come cheap used and are 'usually' hard to find, especially the 929.

They both look like they belong on the Space Shuttle. Both shiny piano black.

Google Image them.

 

As you seem to like the classic looks, I would be one the lookout for on e of the following (or similar). Of course these are in crazy high demand, so be prepared to pay if you run across one. Of course Technics has some that do are really nice like the SL-M series as well.
1. JVC (or Victor) QL-Y7

2. Pioneer PL-707

3. Denon DP-60L

 

Also, do you have a budget? Lot's of choices out there... at many different price points.

 

I have a DP-60L. I'm no expert on turntables but it is built like a tank and a lot cooler than the Pro-Ject it replaced. I lucked out and found it minty on CL. Others I was/have been eyeballing are the Sony PS-X800 and Yamaha GT2000(L) but those don't seem to be that easy to find unless you're willing to spend a lot more than I want to.

 

LOTS of great Denons out there that can be had for under a grand. I own the DP-59L, great table, highly sought after Japanese import even today. I got mine from HiFiDo in excellent condition with both tonearms, all the weights for $900 shipped. The DP 57/62 is another, a little less over quality than the 59. I've even seen the DP 67/72 sell in the $1K range if patient, it's on par and some think a notch above the DP 59L.

There are many more, but we need a budget. I currently own 9 Japanese DD tables that can be had from $500 to $2500, and have many more that I can propose at my fingertips, but without a budget it's a shot in the dark. Plus the "looks" variable...

 

I wasn't ready to put that much into a turntable but lucked out at around $400 for the DP-60L. It only came with the straight arm though. I put another $125 in it having everything gone over/adjusted/lubed, an Ortofon Bronze installed that I already had, had RCA jacks installed and the cover polished. I don't think I could touch anything new in the $500 range that comes close to this. Again, vintage is cool and the quality is better than new IMO depending on how much you want to spend.

 

The 60L is a great table. Almost bought one a few times. @Benzion owns one too, I think he actually swapped the tonearm on his. The 60L had a more "old school" tonearm without all the "Servo Tracer" gadgetry like my 59L and the 62 /72 series has -- it's cool, but more to go wrong, more microprocessors to fail, etc. Despite Denon's peculiar numbering scheme, the 60L is an older model than the 59L, as well as the 62 and 72L. (Note the Japanese 100V equivalent to the 62, 72 is the 57 and 67L. Same table, but 100V vs the 120V US models.)

Many prefer the 60L style tonearm for that reason, some think it's the weak point on the table. I think the 60L is a great platform and if you can find it for $400 like you did, it's a steal!! It's a GREAT table, and better than either proposed by the OP.

 

Besides the KD550 (an excellent table), you might keep an eye out for other Kenwoods at or near the same level. I've owned a KD-4100 for quite a while, and it came with a European plug w/US adapter so I know they were available in Europe. Fully automatic, DD, excellent arm, great performance with a variety of carts. The KD-3100 and KD-5100 are similar.

 

Great idea first of all. My suggestion would be that you first see what's available around you (used stores, classifieds, etc.) and then google the models you come across, you might come across something really good. The other way around is difficult because there are simply too many models out there (it's not that you can get a list of 10 and that's it). Have fun!

 

Another thread yesterday has some good suggestions ... What used Turntable would be better than a new $1500 one?

You can pick up a nice Micro Seiki DD-40 in good shape for around $600, below is mine, though it has some minor mods ...

 

I have a friend with a DP-60L with a Black Widow arm installed. Seems like a strange combo, but I think he is very happy with it.

If my SL-M2 had a non p-mount arm, I would still be using it daily.

Funny that the Op is looking to move from a TD-160 to a DD. I have considered trying a TD-160.

 

I use this Luxman PD272 TT. Features the great Micro Seiki TA-1 tone arm. Direct drive module is all discrete, thus can rebuild vs an impossible to find custom integrated circuit (IC) most direct drive vintage TT use. It sounds wonderful. About $400 in excellent condition. I bought a new plastic cover for $140 shipped.

 

Nice! You couldn't hardly buy a Luxman T-shirt for $400 in my neck of the woods.

 

Nice...but a show off post?

 

Have you considered the Mazda 3 with the SkyActiv transmission...?

 

You are in luck. Luxman shirt on ebay for $22.99. Luxman, Stereo, Components - G240 Long Sleeve T-Shirt | eBay

 

I can have one here at €1150, but that is way off budget (really love the looks though!). There is a Micro Seiki DD-5 but from what I understand is nothing special?!

So to answer your questions regarding budget, that would be something in the region of €600-€650 max (no cart included). That would be around $700 max.

I'm not moving away from my thorens td160, just want a taste of dd to add to my collection and hear for myself if I like it.

The 2 tables I mentioned in my OP, would be around €500, both are in very good condition and would be serviced. I could get these from someone knowledgeable with vintage dd's who also works on them.
At the moment he also has 2 other options:

3. JVC QL-A7 (@BayouTiger @patient_ot ? )
4. Pioneer PL550

These 2 can be had with customized wooden plinth.

Denon's were mentioned and I did a search but no really interesting decks came up in my area.

Someone mentioned a sansui (@bluesky ), the only one available currently is an SR 717 which I don' t really like ( yes the eye needs pleasing as well).

 

Agreed. The tonearm is the weak point - mine got replaced. Otherwise a killer table.

 

@bever70 , my main advice would be to keep your eyes peeled if you want to buy local. Ask around about shops that sell vintage/refurb'd used gear. You might be surprised what you find.

The truly high end collectible stuff might only appear on Japanese auction sides, but I think you may be surprised at how good some of the mid level, consumer tables are when they are properly set up and running correctly. My modest JVC QL-F4 is one of those. Since this is not a rare table or one with a cult following, it can be had fairly cheap. Here in the U.S. they go for less than $200.

The advantage of the Technics 1200 is the support, spare parts, and modding communities for it. There is a LOT that can be done with it, whether you opt for a new one like the G or GR or buy a vintage model. Want to leave it stock? No problem. Want to hot rod it to your heart's content and put a fancy arm and a $10K cartridge on it? Well, that can be done too. It is a very flexible platform. RE: looks, if you don't like the looks build a pretty wood box for it. KAB has free plans on their site you can take a carpenter shop or use to make it yourself if you have the tools.

Good luck.

 

Those are both very nice looking

 

OK, 650 euro is like $750 US. Which means stretching $100 is not out of the question. It's funny, when travelling to Europe a lot I recall the exchange rate was 1.5x or more... things have sure changed!

I will provide the experiences I've had, take it or leave it. If this does not help you so be it, I know it will help some today or in the future in the archives. I spent many hours reading, weeding, ranking, categorizing TT's over the last few years. Everything you see below is off the top of my head, and didn't need to go look on Google. Just saying. There are a LOT of great vintage TT's on the market (a LOT), some are bargains, some are popular and over priced, some are hidden gems. The bargains come in where they don't have the popularity / name recognition, but they are every bit as good or better than the popular ones. They exist. The landscape is wrought with so many, that it is really tough to weed out where one ranks to another. The experience I provide below gives you some of that filtering, again, take it or leave it.

Finally, two things I can't account for - what you like the looks of (your observation about the 1200 for instance) and what is available on the European market. Not being willing to ship will seriously hamper your ability to get the best for your $$ IMHO, just like those who wait for something local on Craigslist to pop either wait forever or settle. Shipping a TT is not rocket science, and if it arrives damaged it is as much fault of the buyer as it is the seller. Don't be afraid to educate the buyer, many don't realize the shipping procedures, and you can have one leg up if you are willing to be diligent. You get out of it what you put into it.

Here are a few. I own some, others not, but the ones I mention I may own the next model up.

• For $800 US dollars shipped from Japan, I recently acquired a Micro DD-8 with the M505 tonearm. I had read about them for years, and alos saw how Davey had been rec'ing the DD-40 here and other places like Audiogon (or was it Asylum? ). Note the DD-35 /40 and DD-5, 7 and 8 are all different naming conventions between Japanese and US market - if you decide to research one you will easily find the equivalent naming. Bottom line - the DD-8 or DD-40 is an outstanding table for the $$, and one that can be had for a great price still. The pic of my DD-8 is in the thread Davey linked above. This table is better than an SL-1200 IMHO (and I've owned a lot of 1200's, currently own three and operate two actively). It also does not have captive cables, you supply your own. That's nice. I have been VERY impressed with this table.
• Also pictured in the thread that Davey linked above - the Pioneer PL-70Lii I own. But that one is the popular model, the one everyone wants and they now go over two grand frequently for the good ones. A couple of years ago, you could have cleaned up on this model for a grand, but the vinyl resurgence has resulted in those sky-rocketing. Also because of boneheads like me going online and touting them, drives the price up. BUT, there are deals to be had. For the $800 range, you can get a Pioneer PL-50Lii. Or even consider the PL-70 or PL-70L (not the ii) which can be had at great prices since the ii is all the rage. Look at Vintage Knob and Audio Database --- they do a great job of describing the differences. These are great tables (the 50L, 50Lii, 70, 70L) and better than the DD-8 or SL-1200 in some cases, and better than many in the price range. Again, I am speaking from ownership and using them, not Google.
• Another brand you mention is Kenwood. Good on you. Kenwood made so many good tables between 1978 and 1988, the list is longer than my arm. Many are real sleepers, hidden gems and can be had for a song, and are just as good or better than the two mentioned above. I own a KP-9010, one which you'd have to pony up $1500 to get a good one shipped since most are coming out of Japan, but again, that is the popular model. The also made an L-07 model which is the TOTL, and goes for as much as 3x more than the 9010 --- it is a freaking tank. BUT again, I would pay attention to the next ones in line after that. Here's one --- the pecking order for the latest Kenwood tables in the 80's goes like this at a high level L07 ----> 9010(or 1100 earlier model) ---> 990 (0r 7010 earlier model). THere are many more, especially late 70's early 80's -- you'll read about the 700, 770, 800, 880 on and on and on. They are all great tables.
  
• But the 9010 / 1100 and the 990 / 7010 use the diecast X frame Kenwood KP-1100 on thevintageknob.org . It's a big deal IMHO. So where I am going with this --- you can find a KP-990 (KD 990 US version) in your price range frequently. Don't ignore it. It smashes the ones you've mentioned, and IMHO the best I've rec'd in your price range so far. (I can feel the price creeping up already, me being a bonehead again).
• As I was finishing typing I saw @patient_ot offer up a JVC -- that's another one where there are some deals / quality equivalent to what I mention above. Think TT-81, slotless, coreless. Also think QL-75, QL-10 and a host of others. I won't go into to detail, search around. This is another goldmine out less popular models that are outstanding.

Again take it or leave it. I would also recommend changing your paradigm of local purchase. Think of getting to know how to get some of these tables out of Japan. I did, and glad I did. If you are diligent, the packing can be flawless and you have nothing to worry about. In the early 80's, we in the states were on a belt-drive kick, had this notion that DD's weren't audiophile tables, and therefore there were tons of Japanese models that never made it stateside. The KP990 did, it's called the KD990, and others like some of the Denons. Some of the best ones, however like the Pioneer PL series, the Yamaha GT series, and on the list goes, never did. Our loss.

Cheers. If this post doesn't help you, I know it will help others some day in the archives. No charge.