John Atkinson no longer editor of Stereophile.

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Thouston, Mar 2, 2019.

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  1. timind

    timind phorum rezident

    Here's a question: has any thread ever gotten so far off topic?:shrug:
     
  2. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I can agree with that.

    My personal system goals are to be able to not only reproduce the music, but the environment that music might be played in, such as an intimate jazz club, a Broadway stage or a rock concert.

    If I am able to achieve that to my satisfaction, I tend to think of it as pleasant.

    But again, I don't rely on measurement's and spec's to achieve this, only my gear, my room and my ears.
     
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  3. hammr7

    hammr7 Forum Resident

    Put me in the camp of usually wanting "accurate" music representation. For serious listening I prefer to hear music the way the performers intended it to be heard. And there are times when musicians don't want their performances to be "pleasant". To me, an always pleasant musical output is too close to happy pills. I want to experience a full range of emotions.

    I say this even though I have many (too many) pieces of tube gear. Perhaps it is my history with live music performances; orchestral, operatic, shows, and bands of all genres. A few of these I was actively involved in, but the majority were simply as a fan in attendance. I want these familiar pieces reproduced exactly as performed. Accurate doesn't mean sterile. But if a performer manages a sterile musical output, that is his (or her) problem. I usually don't want my system to attempt to compensate.

    And yet I like tube gear. Because I can add a little rose-colored pleasant (2nd harmonics) if and when I want to.
     
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  4. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    OK, JA is not longer the editor of Stereophile.

    Now, what else is there really to do with this thread?:shrug:
     
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  5. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    Back in the 1990s Burr Brown was the IN DAC chip maker and I saw their complete price list. There was no chip in the entire catalog that had a cost higher than $3.00. So.someone claiming that the DAC chip is the reason why a DAC is expensive or cheap is a bit puzzling. There is a lot more to a DAC than the chip which is why DACs using older lower res chips often sound a lit better than the new. I have two DACs one uses a near sota ESS Sabre 32 bit/192 and my other DAC uses the same on in the Border Patrol. Old obsolete. The latter sounds a lot better. The former operates both SS and Tube at the flip of a switch. It is also more expensive and doesn't sound as good.

    The DAC 0.1x has been selling for 18 years. My ESS Sabre DAC was so great it has been discontinued already after about 4 years.
     
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  6. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    Well that is a reality to me and an opinion isn't ridiculous. If you hate Brussel Sprouts I can't tell you that that is ridiculous. You don't like what you don't like. And I don't like what I don't like.

    And some people are highly fussy eaters while others will eat slop without a care in the world.

    And I did mention my statements are when I put the anal reviewer audiophile hat on. In the regular day to day world SS is fine.

    I have not been emotionally connected to SS systems. Or even a lot of tube based systems. Some people are fussier with their audio playback and fussier in different ways.

    I've largely stated my preferences and I generally try to state my bias in reviews. People should be fine with that. When I first heard the Meishu in a pseudo blind listening session it basically destroyed every other system I heard the 15 years prior. I still have yet to hear a push pull tube or SS amplifier that has sounded better. And I'm not even a 300b fan.
     
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  7. Argus1

    Argus1 Well-Known Member

    I have enjoyed Stereophile since the very early 70s and JA has been a major part that I still read it to this day.
     
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  8. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    Well there are plenty of classically trained pianists and composers who buy SET. I largely bought my speakers from an experience listening to a professional pianist's system - he is retired pianist from the Beijing Symphony orchestra and is retired and teaches piano - he has Audio Note Kegon monoblock amplifiers and the AN E/Spx Alnico speakers that I now have and that Steve Hoffman also has.

    This pianist used to own top of the line Apogee and Krell. Krell is about as Solid State as it gets able to drive 1 ohm speakers and has bomb proof industry leading measured performance. Replaced by sub 20 watts SET amp and the AN E speakers because he wants his piano to sound like a piano! So that theory is tossed out the window. I sat in his home - nice piano too. But it was the specialized non dynbamically limited direct to disc Chinese Drum and classical music that put the speakers on my radar.

    The Hong Kong audiophile market is very clearly tube fanatical and something of an aside is that Hong Kongers speak and listen to Cantonese - a 9 tone language - unlike English which doesn't rely on tone - you can speak in a monotone and listen to monotone and be understood - that is not the case with Cantonese.

    This is not to say by the way that I think all tube amps are good or better than SS by virtue of merely being a tube amp - on the contrary - there is a reason most people never pass a blind test comparing SS amplifiers - and that's because they sound a lot more alike than they sound different. I would be happy to have all the Stereophile writers sit in a room blind and level matched auditioning the Rotel RB 1090 a 1kw capable $1999 SS amplifier (maybe $750 used) versus a $55,000 Momentum amplifier from their friend Dan D'Agostino driving and seeing if anyone could tell the amplifiers apart to statistical significance.

    Tube amplifiers vary wildly and can sound much worse than a decent SS amplifier and even a GOOD tube or SET amplifier varies considerably depending on the speaker - the SET is somewhat more a slave to the impedance and other attributes of the speaker's load. While a SS sounds mediocre with all speakers - a Good SET can sound utterly appalling with one speaker and utterly sublime with another - and also mediocre with a bunch as well.

    Years back Hi-Fi Choice reviewed the Sugden A21a and the Roksan Kandy integrated amplifiers - both are SS and I reviewed the latter myself. They awarded the Kandy the editor's choice award as best amplifier but if you read the reviews they called the Sugden "easily" the best sounding of the lot. The strikes against it were and ARE credible arguments. The Kandy had something like 125 watts per channel of power, remote control and will drive pretty much any speaker you throw at it well. Plus it had more features looked nice etc. The Sugden at 20 watts and no remote control less features and operates like a SET amplifier and runs uncomfortably hot (fry an egg on top hot) is NOT a practical amplifier.

    SET amps are not a practical amplifier - the word idiosyncratic is fair. SET amplifiers are just fussy and there is a big difference between what appears to be the same kind of amps. Listening to a 300B Cary versus and Audio Note 300B kit back in the day - both 8 watts but the Cary had soft flabby bass while the Kit was deep tight and powerful. So parts play a bigger factor in a SET amp than a SS amplifier typically. Why?

    Well from Bryston years back they noted that all of their power amps sound EXACTLY the same whether you buy the cheapest 3BST or their flagship - the only difference was the top of the line was far more powerful and could drive more difficult speakers. That isn't the case with SET amplifiers - you are paying for parts quality to increase resolution not increase power. More powerful SET amps cost more money merely because the power transformers have to be larger to support the higher voltages.

    Lastly, most all SET owners have owned numerous SS amplifiers over the years - the progression has been going "from" SS "to" tube amplifiers and then "to" SET amplifiers. I grew up on SS. There is no nostalgia factor for me.
     
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  9. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    I would not get caught up on the speakers - the AN E is meant for an average sized living room - not a massive room. I am talking about SET - not the speakers. I chose my speakers for the room size - if I had a larger room my expense would have to go up - it would still be a SET amplifier but mated perhaps to something like the Acapella Triolons's that fellow reviewer Fred Crowder owns. But he still runs a SET and he directly compared the SET amps to the flagship Pass Labs at $70,000 - the SETs won.
     
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  10. captwillard

    captwillard Forum Resident

    Location:
    Nashville
    None of this makes you an authority on what sounds best. That is the key takeaway.
     
    timind likes this.
  11. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    I still agree - I am actually a speaker slut more than I give the impression - I auditioned Focal Micro Utopias and a $300,000 SS front end monoblocks set-up and it was VERY impressive. It's just that as impressive as it was for the money - it's just silly and impressive is different than musically gratifying or all day listenable.

    There is no such thing as accurate music reproduction and people need to get that out of their head. Once you accept the fact that we are all buying a series of trade-offs then we'll be better off. The AN E is hardly a perfect loudspeaker or renders all musical instruments perfectly - even Peter Qvortrup in an interview said he felt the speakers were around 80% there. And that means his top of the line $200k version.

    And he is correct. A big excellent well made horn dynamically thumps the AN E - Some speakers have the sort of treble that has that shimmer that is just phenomenal - the AN E tweeters just don't do that. And like my off the cuff ratings note though is that the Horns don't have the cohesiveness or timing elements truly down - many horns have the treble jump out front or have a sensitivity mismatch etc.

    But in a big room and with effort you can ameliorate many of these issues.

    I also like some of the big not so easy to drive speakers - but for me the problem then becomes about powering them - the expense to get truly great sound from a very high powered amp makes the combination less attractive - sure Perfect 8 Technologies and Ypsilon or YG Acoustics and Ypsilon or MBL with MBL sound very good - but the combined price of all that versus an Acapella High Cellini and Onkoru amps - it's tough to say the latter would not be just as good or even a lot better for way less than half the price (albeit still ludicrously expensive).
     
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  12. hvbias

    hvbias Midrange magic

    Location:
    Northeast
    Richard I have to apologize for the first part you quoted, that was a "clipped thought" posted from my phone.

    My second post is more fleshed out, and it has a link for what I am doing for my next system. This should not have come across as anti-SET, I know that they need to be matched with the right efficiency/load. The constant directivity midrange/treble horn I am using will be something like 110 db/w efficient. I have not ruled out custom built SET amps with Intact Audio's transformers. I would be looking at amps that are pure DHT, driver and output tube.

    What would you decide between 300K$ and 30K$ speakers?

    I wouldn't consider myself a lackadaisical listener like you seem to suggest with solid state amp listeners. I worked hard my entire life to be at a point where I can comfortably spend $200k on a system to reproduce what I want it to reproduce accurately- concert grand, string tone, large orchestral music. I find if a system can do that it will sail through everything else. Unfortunately I think you and are listening for different things when it comes to AN systems, I can not get over how they audibly compress and flatten highly dynamic classical music, for me this is a non-starter because that wide dynamic range is something that means so much to me. When that is gone the emotional aspect of the music is blunted. I've probably pissed off more than a few people in the music forum by saying something bad about the latest remaster (even audiophile ones) that have even slight dynamic range compression :) It's just something I can not live with. I also do not find their systems tonally accurate, tonally pleasant, yes.

    I will have to disagree with you on Acapella speakers as well. To me they scream that I am listening to horn speakers. My close friend has Avant-Garde Duo (older ones), I am fully aware I am listening to horn speakers with those as well. Again not something that I really want, to me the pure musicality is getting lost in the event of listening to music. I try and attend classical events all over the world primarily for musical interpretative enjoyment but always having that live reference fresh in my mind. My avatar is Andrea Lucchesini playing Schubert's D959 on a full size Steinway. When he played it, it figuratively sounded like the world is moving (me sitting front row towards the left). That is what a reference system should do for me :D
     
  13. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Look what I found

    Location:
    AZ
    Even still, I learned a lot from this thread...... I wish I could say all of it was positive, unfortunately some of what I saw dampened my enthusiasm for lack of a better way of putting it. This silly division between "camps" borders on childish at times... and hurts the industry as a whole. Plus the lack of respect for others shown by some is appalling.
    Almost posted the same thing earlier when the "off topic" cops showed up :) :cop:

    On the flipside if I were the new editor of Stereophile, I would be reading some of the posts here, there definitely is a "pulse" from audiophiles on some key topics.... if you can sort it out from the "not my choice" turf battles. There may be some things to consider as they attempt to keep (or rekindle) the viability of the publication / site.
     
  14. ThorensSme

    ThorensSme Forum Resident

    Location:
    Spokane
    Richard, when your “preference” is something that denies the legitimacy or possibility of another preference, it becomes something other than preference.

    Sing the praises of the tube approach a la AN all you want (this you will do regardless), I think it’s great you found what you like.

    Many of us have very different systems, and feel similarly.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2019
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  15. timind

    timind phorum rezident

    Yeah, I had to self-delete a couple of replies in order to keep myself out of trouble with the mods. While typing a reply, I found myself going to the Thesaurus so I wouldn't keep repeating the words pompous and pretentious. Better to keep my mouth shut.:hide:
     
  16. 5-String

    5-String μηδὲν ἄγαν

    Location:
    Sunshine State
    This is the nature of the internet. People feel comfortable to hide behind anonymous accounts and say vile things.
     
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  17. Brando4905

    Brando4905 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Marion, NC
    For real. If I see one more freaking pic of Altec speakers I'm going to puke.
     
  18. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Look what I found

    Location:
    AZ
    Topic germane to the thread --- Dear new Stereophile editor - if you are looking for reading material as you are pondering the new Stereophile Mission Statement, consider these threads - these are related to how audiophiles view the review industry, and checks the pulse of many audiophiles on the best audio board going:

    How Much do you Trust Online Reviewers?
    Most Ridiculous Review Quotes
     
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  19. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    It's interesting that you mention the ESS SAber DAC chip. I see so many comments about it being digital sounding and bright.

    I have an older ESS Scaber DAC chip in my Peachtree iNova, which I use as the system DAC, using digital sources as transports.

    Given the negative press that Saber DAC's often receive, I find it interesting how many quality companies choose to deploy this chip in their high end products, like Oppo, Parasound and others.

    I personally think that the Ess chips make nice sounding DAC's, and don't hear the bright digital qualities that other seem to associate with the ESS chip's.

    Forty three years using SS amps. Five years using class "A/B" tube amps. A year and a half using class "A" SET and SEP amps.

    No "nostalgia factor" for me either. I just think that they can do wonderful things that I was not aware of before.

    For what ever reason, people can not seem to get this one little premise through their head's.

    "There is no such thing as accurate music reproduction."

    "Once you accept the fact that we are all buying a series of trade-offs then we'll be better off."

    It's really that simple, isn't it?

    Interesting point here.

    How about some actual articles on sound reproduction?

    Might be nice and useful, from an audio magazine, no?

    Of course, it they were to point out something positive about one technology, advertiser's marketing other technologies, might take offense?
     
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  20. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    Quite the sensitive one aren't you?

    Noting that I only see one picture of Altec speaker's in a thread with 216-posts prior to yours.

    How about a photo of some Klipsch speaker's to brighten up your day and keep you from loosing your lunch?

    [​IMG]

    Assume that you are OK with horn speaker's as long as they are not Altec's?
     
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  21. ThorensSme

    ThorensSme Forum Resident

    Location:
    Spokane
    Agree that there always trade offs when building a system. Kind of like there is in life.

    But if there is no ‘accurate’ and everything is merely subjective why do some people bloviate on and on about the superiority of one thing over another? What’s the basis for that?

    J Gordon Holt (to bring this back to Stereophile) used unamplified acoustic instruments as his reference point. This is a good way for people to get a sense of what a system is doing or not doing. Of course this requires attendance to listening to such music in real life.

    As for other types of music, it’s hard to expect any ‘accuracy’ - since there is little to compare it to as a point of reference. (I love many forms of music btw, this is not a ranking of music importance in any way).
     
  22. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    Which is why I go with what ever sounds best to me and don't worry about it any farther.
     
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  23. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Look what I found

    Location:
    AZ
    Sand - I think he was trying to be funny.... (I know he was). I "Liked" his post personally because I thought it was funny :) let's face it over time you have displayed lots of pics of your Altecs! But I mean that affectionately, respectfully, not trying to be disparaging ---- but you have and you should own that and that's that!!

    Not making a judgment either way, I show a lot of pics of my TT's and once in a while get a jab, but I know I deserve it because when you put it out there (especially if it borders on too much - like with my TT's), sometimes it's open season! :) I laugh and say to myself "yeah, I have overkilled that on this thread" ---- but you know what, I'll show 'em again!!!! :laugh::righton: Sometimes thick skin helps too.... then realizing you are doing with good intention 100% of the time, and you are doing in your way to help others. I know that's your MO and intent.
     
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  24. teag

    teag Forum Resident

    Location:
    Colorado
    Sometimes I wonder just how important the vertical tracking angle setting is. I have noticed differences when I change the setting, but then a record with warping plays and sounds just as good as one without any warpage. Not major warp but certainly enough to change the VTA back and forth for a song or 2.
     
  25. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Look what I found

    Location:
    AZ
    I think this was meant for another thread (I know cuz I replied to the same thread yesterday! :))

    Still time to delete and I will do the same.
     
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