Music Matters Definitive Blue Note 45 RPM and 33 & 1/3 RPM vinyl series (pt7)

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by MilesSmiles, Jun 13, 2014.

  1. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    Wait... You're confused a repetitive run with a skip in the vinyl??

    :imwithstupid::righton::laughup:

    I don't have the album, but I was listening to the passage via YouTube. I actually hear subtle dynamic changes in his blowing with each of the runs so they sound different to me. But I suppose if I weren't really listening carefully, and didn't notice that the rhythm maintained its continuity, I perhaps might have come to that conclusion. But I'm used to musicians, particularly pianists, running little repeated rhythmic patterns to support the music.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
  2. Joti Cover

    Joti Cover Forum Resident

    It doesn’t surprise me, stellar as they are. Great news re repress. Thank you!
     
  3. musictoad

    musictoad Forum Resident

    Location:
    Salt Lake City, UT
    Wow.
     
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  4. guidedbyvoices

    guidedbyvoices Old Dan's Records

    Location:
    Alpine, TX
    I checked it out on Apple Music and I hear something at that moment, maybe a tape edit or something? I don’t hear it as a skip but glad that whatever he heard wasn’t a true skip.


    I think what happens is, these sound SO good that we listen much closer than maybe other recordings and any imperfection jumps out
     
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  5. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    I was only kidding. I assumed you ultimately realized it was in the music itself.

    Seriously, I thought it was an interesting discovery.

    I could relate an I'm With Stupid story that would be pointed at me that happened yesterday. Non-music related, but very embarrassing.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
  6. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    Man, I have relistened several times and don't hear anything resembling a skip or tick. Perhaps it's more audible on the record with greater fidelity than YouTube provides.

    All I hear is some repetitive comping and the Henderson's repeated run.

    Regarding your other point, our expectations are certainly quite high, given that prices are higher than our expectations. I mean, Music Matters and Analogue Productions, then ORG, reset our assumptions about the cost of buying a vinyl album (even if they brought the overall standards up as well).

    And when MM brought the sales in-house and started a new pricing system, that reset our expectations as well, what with more fluid pricing.

    And then AP and Mobile Fidelity introduced the $100 and up retailing for a single album (perhaps double-disc, but a single album). It has made the Media Matters records, even at $75 for a double-disc 45rpm album, a relative bargain.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
  7. BendBound

    BendBound Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bend, OR
    PRESENTING THE BLUE NOTE 80 VINYL REISSUE SERIES

    Assuming the pressing are good, these titles are of interest to me:

    Robert Glasper – Canvas (2005)
    Grant Green – Grant’s First Stand (1961)
    Reuben Wilson – Blue Mode (1969)
    Bobbi Humphrey – Blacks And Blues (1973)
    John Scofield Hand Jive (1993)
    Jutta Hipp – Jutta Hipp with Zoot Sims (1956) – I have the Japanese reissue
    Grant Green Alive! (1970)
    Jimmy Smith – Groovin’ At Smalls’ Paradise (1957)
    Lonnie Smith – Live at Club Mozambique (1970)
    Lee Konitz – Alone Together (1996)
    Art Blakey & The Jazz Messengers – Buhaina’s Delight (1961)
    Tony Williams – Foreign Intrigue (1985)
    Elvin Jones – Mr. Jones (1972)
    Jackie McLean – A Fickle Sonance (1961)
    Andrew Hill – Smokestack (1963)

    The others I have found over the years...

    Would like to see:

    Grant Green – A Latin Bit (1962)
    Grant Green – Visions (1972)
    Bobby Hutcherson – Montara (1974)
    Hank Mobley – Hi Voltage
    (1967)
    Duke Pearson – Tender Feelin's (1959)
    Duke Pearson – Profile (1959)

    ...among others.
     
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  8. Cervelo

    Cervelo Forum Resident

    Location:
    Upstate, NY
    I seem to remenber comments that the Wayne Shorter "Speak No Evil" MM 45 didn't sound nearly as good as the 33 due to a different master (not a 33/45 speed/sound comparison). Anybody recall that conversation?

    I have the opportunity to pick up the 45 at a good price.

    Thanks
     
  9. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    I'd like to get a hold of Grant Green's Alive!, but I'll be sure to wait until I get to hear about their general quality. I see that Basra is scheduled for early 2020.
     
  10. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    Yeah, the source material for the 33 was supposed to be better.

    But wouldn't you think that MM wouldn't release a record unless it was really good? How good a price? Under $50?

    There's still something potentially better with a record cut at 45. I would guess that the 45 is still really musical and engaging.
     
  11. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    Perfectly stated.

    As yet, I've found no objective evidence that cutting at 45RPM offers any audible benefit.

    I own dozens of MM45s and love them, but of the few SRXs I have heard, they are every bit as good and better.

    I have had a couple of cases where I was able to compare a 45RPM with a 33RPM that had the exact same mastering:

    Chet Baker's Chet Is Back mastered by Bernie Grundman and issued by ORG. Zero difference by ear. Recorded both. Zero difference by science.

    Miles Davis's Seven Steps To Heaven on AP. The 33 credits Ryan K. Smith while the 45 credits George Marino, but they appear to be the same mastering. Could not hear any difference by ear. Nor was there any difference in recording both and observing them in Audacity.

    My guess is that cutting in 45 might be a bit easier on the engineer when it comes to bass, but as yet there isn't a shred of definitive evidence that 45RPM betters 33RPM in terms of quantifiable, recorded results that move beyond the purely subjective.

    I hope MM does not go back to 45. It's arguably wasted weight and materials. Let Mofi release one double album every year or whatever their pace is and people can pay $125 for $10-$20 records. With Blue Note I ultimately want pure sound (with as little futzing as possible) on 33RPM that I can't buy for $10-$20 in its original form.
     
  12. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    Oooh, you'll get a lot of push back on that. You may not hear it, yourself.

    Everyone I know (a few) who subscribed to both the 45 and 33 series prefers the sound of the 45s. Most here who have compared the SRX to the 45s prefer the 45s for the sound.

    Nate and Chad compared the 33 and 45 of their AP pressing of Nina Simone's Little Girl Blue. They could hear the added weight and punch, that bit of added immediacy with the 45. I bought the 45. All the qualities I associate with a 45 are present, and it's a wonderful pressing.

    Personally, I compared the MM 33 and 45 of Larry Young's Unity. I thought that the 45 was significantly superior. It had more air, it was more spacious, was more relaxed, yet had more transient snap. I found the 33 to be a bit more confined, a bit more tightly wound.

    It's not like I would kick the 33 out of bed, but I much prefer the 45.

    While, as has been mentioned, cutting at 45 isn't the only factor into making a great sounding record. But all things being equal, even Joe Harley admits the superiority of a 45. It's physics.

    But add a better source tape, better mastering for the 33? It's why the 33 of Maiden Voyage is an exception to the rule.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
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  13. Starquest

    Starquest ‎ ‎ ‎

    Location:
    Twin Cities, MN
    Oh heck yes - Takin Off in May and Inventions & Dimensions in Oct!

    I gotta wait a year-plus for Andrew Hill – Smokestack. Not happy!! :)

    Lotsa good stuff on that list!
     
  14. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    I prefer the 33 of Unity to the 45, but they aren't the exact same mastering, so the speed comparison is irrelevant. The 33 has a little less top end (usually the opposite is true but not here) and I prefer that in this case.

    Only one comparison can demonstrate that 45RPM cutting is in any real way better than 33RPM in terms of the final product available to the end user: Take a mastering on 45RPM, put it on 33RPM and then record the same song from both using the exact same equipment. Demonstrate differences in dynamics, frequency response and so forth via any software editor that can open both recorded files and show how they compare.

    Perhaps not surprisingly, I am aware of no such demonstration. We're talking about the simplest thing in the world to scientifically prove but audiophiles can be a gullible bunch. A guy who sells 45RPM for a premium "heard" a difference. Real convincing.

    As I say, I have dozens of the MM 45s, but it's because I like they way they were mastered. Were those exact masterings put onto SRX I personally doubt there would be any difference except that the SRX would be better due to the improved SRX vinyl formulation.

    Btw, do not take what I am saying the wrong way. I am NOT saying 45RPM cannot be better. I'm saying that I have seen no objective, conclusive evidence of it. And in the two examples I cited, there was zero difference. Both recordings came out 100% identical.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
  15. geddy402

    geddy402 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Mid Atlantic
    Good timing for my advice on 33 vs 45. Don’t play a 45 at 33, it sounds like poop. A few minutes ago I started to listen to Jackie McLean’s Destination Out on 45 and about 3/4 of the way through I thought to myself, this doesn’t sound good at all. And, like I’ve done before (a number too embarrassing to admit) I forgot to switch over to 45rpm. Once I did, the music came alive!

    In all seriousness though, I have several MM in 33 and 45 and I think the 45s have some slight edge. They somehow have “more” in them. Meaning I can get them louder and they stay pristine and crystal clear. But, as I’ve mentioned somewhere on this thread, there are some fabulous sounding 33s. Empyrean Isles comes to mind.

    For the Unity debate, I have the 45, 33 and original mono. Since it is one of my favorite BNs I find them all appealing, none better than another but all unique in their own way. I grab each one for a different listening experience. We are spoiled brats when it comes to these great albums!
     
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  16. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    What does 'objective' mean to you? Measurable?

    Observation is valid as well. You're the one who prefers the sound of the 33 of Unity. And there are other musical qualities I'm listening for, as I mentioned.

    As far as Little Girl Blue, both the 33 and 45 are Analogue Productions releases, both mastered by the same mastering engineer. Chad will make money either way. It was Chad and Nate's observations. And they weren't generic ones. They were specific as to what they were hearing. It was their experiment. They were hearing a greater impact with the hammers of the keys with the 45. They were hearing a greater spaciousness.

    Classic Records put out a series of singles with a cut on one side at 33, the other at 45. I have two of them. It's pretty clear the difference between the two of them in my system.

    You're asserting that there's no difference in reality. I hear it consistently. And observation can be very powerful.
     
  17. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    Would you list your equipment in your profile? I'm not seeing it. It's helpful for others when reading assessments.

    I just updated my equipment profile. Is yours up to date?
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
  18. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    I think the 45 of Empyrean Isles smokes the 33.

    But it is a totally different mastering. Not valid for any type of comparison between 33 vs. 45.
     
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  19. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    Again, if you trust Joe Harley enough to trust his ears to put out a great sounding piece of vinyl that is from a digital source, you might want to trust his ears with regard to 45s.

    After a few series of putting out records at 45s, Joe and Ron thought they could reach a different and/or wider market with the 33s.

    Yes, Kevin Gray did his upgrades, both with cables and a new studio, but that didn't mean that they lost their ultimate belief in the superiority of cutting at 45. The SRX vinyl allows for greater dynamics. But whatever advantages that brings to a 33, that also brings them to a 45. Why do you think they're considering some 45 reissues using the SRX vinyl? They're fanatics at getting the best sound from these albums.
     
  20. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    Yes, but I don't think it is a matter of opinion.

    Observation is of course valid, but it proves nothing. It's entirely subjective.

    The 45 and the 33 don't cost the same though, do they?


    Ah yes, thanks. You've just reminded me of another one I tested. Lou Donaldson's 'Lou Takes Off'. I have the 33 but acquired the 45RPM single-sided set. 4 LPs for crying out loud. What a load of nonsense. When I put the 45RPM on I thought it sounded a little better. Then I put the 33 on and thought it wasn't quite as good. Then I put the 45 on and wasn't sure there was any difference.

    Now bear in mind what we're talking about. Any difference would be so small that I couldn't even be sure it existed. This is what listening to jazz is about?

    Anyway, I got curious and recorded both. I really wanted the 45 to be better as I thought the package with 4 LPs was just so cool and I happen to love this album even more than Blues Walk.

    Guess what?

    ZERO difference. Not a single peak was higher on the 45. Both frequency charts were identical.

    Consistently? You stated that you have two Classic Records reissues which have one side at 33 and one at 45. Why not simply record each side and see what you find? I'd love to see evidence that the 45 beats the 33, as I have bought a lot of 45s.

    IMO, all of your love for MM 45s has everything to do with mastering and little to nothing to do with speed, but as I've said, evidence to the contrary would not be a difficult thing to provide.
     
  21. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    It's there, chief. If it were so "helpful" I would have thought you'd know how to find it, but anyway.......

    Although I do have two other rooms with a bunch of different gear.

    This ain't about gear. It's about hearing what we want to hear vs. a more objective tactic.
     
  22. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    Observation is NOT necessarily subjective. Opinion is subjective. What I prefer is subjective. Brightness, depth, for example, are qualities that are objective.

    And no, it's not necessarily mastering that makes a difference. It's physics. It's science. It's reproducible.

    The difference in cost between the 45 and 33 is $55 and $35. But there's not that much more of a profit margin. It's not night and day.

    And it's not like they're even advertising it as improved. It was in a private conversation about various pressings and comparisons.

    I understand. You're skeptical, almost to the point of cynicism. But you're making some assumptions that are incorrect.

    As I said, observation is very powerful. It's hard to measure why most listeners prefer the sound of analog over digital. Sure, preference is subjective, but why do most people prefer analog. Perhaps our current methods for measurement are inadequate.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
  23. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    Sorry, it was a different poster who hadn't listed his equipment.

    But equipment can make a difference, too. Our ears, included.
     
  24. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    Miles Davis - Seven Steps To Heaven AP 45RPM vs 33RPM

    The 33 had a little click at 1:20, but otherwise you can see that these are so close that any difference would have to be extremely minor (if there at all).

    [​IMG]
     
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  25. Stu02

    Stu02 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canada
    Guys please stop with this painful dialogue. This common debate has a tendency to never end......you can always start a new thread on this sub topic
     
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