Music Matters Definitive Blue Note 45 RPM and 33 & 1/3 RPM vinyl series (pt7)

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by MilesSmiles, Jun 13, 2014.

  1. This isn’t the forst time I’ve heard this but it really perplexes me. The AP was mastered by KG and Steve Hoffman at Acoustech, just as much of the MM45s were. Very odd to see the reports of this one being a dud
     
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  2. Morbius

    Morbius Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brookline, MA
    Funny thing about those AP 45s is they do sound flat and dull unless you turn them up a bit. I tend to like to listen to most records with my volume set at about 9:30 but with a lot of APs I need to turn it well past 10:00 to bring out the life and vibrance thats on the LP . I don't have to do that with all of them but it often makes the difference.
     
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  3. YEX 750-1

    YEX 750-1 Long-winded Brother

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    I'll second this- I find my AP45s pretty luscious when you turn them up a little and let them blow. For example the Maiden Voyage AP45, which I love, more than my MM33. (Not speaking specifically to Idle Moments, which I don't have; I sold my MM33 because the date's just not for me despite my affection for Grant Green's more upbeat stuff.)
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2019
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  4. mikeyt

    mikeyt Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    From what I've read, there were different philosophies applied...
     
  5. Where did you read that? Everything I have seen indicates that the sole difference was to be the licensing for different titles for different labels and the packaging.

    I only have 2 AP blue note 45s, Somethin Else and the Sidewinder. They are phenomenal and every bit as good as my (significantly larger) MMJ collection. They do not sound the least bit flat or dull. In fact, quite the opposite.
     
  6. mikeyt

    mikeyt Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    It's come up at various times in this thread, sometimes by Steve with comments on his work with the tapes.
     
  7. A search of his posts in this thread shows that he never said that, at least not in this thread. I did see a few I’ll quote below that may speak to any differences between the two series. #1, Joe Harley. #2, Steve indicates the tapes on the later RVG blue notes can sound a tad dull. Maybe the hyped treble of the Idle Moments 33 solves this for some people. However, the Sidewinder is 1964 and I don’t feel it is dull to my ears in my system.

    I just really don’t think it’s fair for people to make these sweeping generalizations about the AP blue note series with no source, no specifics, etc. People come here to research what albums to buy and to indicate the APs aren’t up to snuff with MMJ across the board is simply not true.

     
  8. vette442

    vette442 Senior Member

    I have the MM33, the AP45 and the AP SACD but have not taken the time to compare. The 45 and SACD sounded really nice to me in the years before the MM 33 was released. Need to compare at some point...
     
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  9. mikeyt

    mikeyt Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    The Idle Moments 45 wasn't MM it was Analogue Productions. I don't know if Joe Harley was part of those but they sound different so there was a different mastering philosophy behind those which differ from the later MM series (post Hoffman). I haven't seen anyone make a generalization that the entire AP series isn't up to snuff compared to MM, only certain titles like Idle Moments which is one of the reasons why MM did the title in the first place; they believed they could do it better. I believe the AP stereo 45 of Blue Train is still regarded very well along with some others, like the titles you mentioned.

    Steve also lays it out in that second and third quote. The tapes sound mellow, the initial 45s are more laid back. They were mastered to be more lively than the tapes but later on they decided to be more aggressive. After that it's just subjective as to what one prefers as has been discuseed ad nauseam here.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2019
  10. First, I am well aware the 45 was AP. That’s what started this discussion. There is a hyped treble on the AQ cabling that shows on the 33, which is why I said that may be why some prefer it. Further, I am only comparing KG/SH APs to the KG/SH MMs. Obviously not the same titles, but the general sonic signature. I do not hear a noticeable difference. So when people post the APs “sound flat” or “need to be turned up” to sound good, I fully disagree.

    And there were generalizations about AP, and not just by you. See quotes below.

    This was in response to me talking specifically about KG/SH APs vs KG/SH MMs. That sounds to me like you are saying for AP they (KG and SH) took a different approach and I have yet to see any evidence of such. I’m not saying it isn’t true, I’m just saying I haven’t seen Steve say that, nor have I heard that in my, admittedly, limited experience with the AP blue note 45s.
     
  11. mikeyt

    mikeyt Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    I think I see where the cables got crossed here. I didn't make any generalizations that the APs are all dull and horrid, I liked the ones I've heard personally. My point was that the 45s from AP from KG / SH were purposefully more laid back to be more like the tapes, but livened up to sound good. The MM 45s also went about doing this but once SH left they took on a more aggressive sound and continued that way. Thus, change in mastering philosphies.
     
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  12. Thank you for clarifying, that makes more sense. And reading back, I wasn’t trying to be combative, though it may have come off a bit in that direction.

    Before joining the forum and posting, I would research here very frequently to determine what pressings of records to buy (though not Jazz in those days), and I know there are countless more out there doing that now. And that will continue to be the case down the line for years to come. So I always try to be conscious of the impact of what I (and others) post may have on other audio enthusiasts’ decisions and even the bottom line of the companies producing these items. I’m sure we have all seen the impact of SHTV enthusiasm on items going OOS, or way up in price. I’m sure it goes the other way as well. So I had no other intention that to clear the waters a bit for the record (no pun intended).

    Cheers!
     
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  13. mikeyt

    mikeyt Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    I should have been more clear. And I haven't heard the 45 of Idle Moments myself but I recall folks much preferring the 33 for that one, and I think either Joe or someone who had a conversation with Ron mentioned that it was a title they felt they could improve when they decided to do the 33 series. I've only compared the 33 to a blue label Van Gelder and I think the MM handily wins, but the blue label does have a certain vibe to it.
     
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  14. Morbius

    Morbius Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brookline, MA
    Not to be argumentative but you need to hear more of the APs as compared to the MM 45s, the differences are quite distinct and I do agree with mikeyt that there was a different approach used in mastering despite where his information may have come from.
     
  15. To be clear, you find distinct differences btw the two labels, strictly speaking to titles where SH was involved?
     
  16. DeRosa

    DeRosa Vinyl Forever

    The opinion that there are differences in the mastering between the AP and MM series is quite widely held.
     
  17. recstar24

    recstar24 Senior Member

    Location:
    Glen Ellyn, IL
    For me, and as I mentioned before, I find the biggest differences between the two labels to be mostly attributed to mastering choices/philosophy. Chad at AP to the best of my knowledge was not present nor active in the mastering process whatsoever, whereas Ron and Joe were very hands-on and active with Kevin throughout the process.
     
  18. NorthNY Mark

    NorthNY Mark Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canton, NY, USA
    I'm not sure if it's widely held so much as those who hold it tend to present as if it were objective fact, so those who've never compared may just assume it to be the case. I, for one, do not hear any broad differences between the AP and MM releases with Hoffman/Gray mastering. I think I DO hear differences between those albums and the MMs done by Gray only, especially after the switch to 33s. Of course, it's complicated, in that there is so much variation among the sonics of different individual albums. I haven't heard every single AP or MM, but to me, the best sounding albums in both series have a very similar sound, regardless of their reissue company, as do the least impressive sounding albums in each series.

    That said, Steve's statement quoted above that Joe Harley had the final say in all MM releases does indeed suggest that there might be differences from the sound of the APs. Yet, he also claims that Joe changed his approach around the time of the move to Cohearent, which is also consistent with my perception that the biggest differences occur on that basis, rather than between the AP and MM albums where Steve was involved (and his description of that change--toward a slightly more aggressive approach--is also consistent with what I perceive as the change in sonics).
     
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  19. johnt23

    johnt23 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Oregon
    Music Matters lps make cymbals sound like cymbals. Art Blakey's cymbals should not be "laid-back" :)
     
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  20. My thoughts as well. The SHTV group think can become very prevalent.

    The cymbals on my AP somethin else sound like cymbals..
     
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  21. I do think Joe Harley played a role in any differences between the two. But it’s not like Steve and Kevin need supervision to create an excellent product. Really, Idle Moments is the only AP BN 45 I have read negative reports on. And I’ve seen such reports multiple times so I do believe there is substance to it. But to say APs sound dull when compared to MMs across the board, particularly comparing SH/KG mastering between the two, seems a bit off base
     
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  22. johnt23

    johnt23 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Oregon
    More like cymbals.
    It's hard bop not soft bop. It should be more in-your-face.




     
  23. NorthNY Mark

    NorthNY Mark Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canton, NY, USA
    Agreed on both counts. I can't imagine how the tonality of the AP Somethin' Else could be improved upon--everything sounds almost uncannily live and present on my system. And the main reason I preferred the AP 45 of Maiden Voyage to the MM33 had to do with the realism and dynamism of the cymbals. Tony's cymbals were considerably louder in relation to other instruments on the 33, but sounded less dynamic and natural (especially in the decay) to my ears, on my system.

    But I really don't want to turn this into a big debate again. I hope we can all agree that the questions of whether or not there are differences between the AP and MM series, or 45s and 33s, and which if either is better or worse, are not easily answered and will depend a great deal on not only one's system and sonic preferences, but which albums one has or hasn't compared. In general, though, they are all of high quality.
     
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  24. recstar24

    recstar24 Senior Member

    Location:
    Glen Ellyn, IL
    I agree - please take my previous statement purely in reference to your original question wanting comparisons for idle moments. My intent was definitely not to make a blanket statement between the two. In my experience, the comparison for myself with idle moments was very clear and strong - I listened to the AP45 once, dismissed the album as boring and overrated, never to listen to it again. Was able to procure a MM33 relatively cheap, figured "what the heck", and once the needle landed, absolutely fell in love with it, and remains one of my favorite, regular spins. Sold the AP45 the next day :)
     
  25. Fender Relic

    Fender Relic Forum Resident

    Location:
    PennsylBama
    TGIF...I'm giving a big MM Wahoo!

    [​IMG]
     
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