Strictly for fans of Audio Note UK (all things Audio Note UK)

Same. I told my wife i intended to pick up a simple CD rack from IKEA because I'd like to take my CD's from storage. I've been buying a lot of CD's on discogs and have enjoyed spinning them in a Rotel DVD transport > Yamaha A-S801 DAC.

She literally said "ew, CD's? Like we're in college?" For some reason she likes the looks of my few hundred records, but CD's are aesthetically unappealing to her.

 

An interesting fact of modern life is that CDs are considered strange anachronisms but LP's aren't.

 

The CD has had such negative image and deemed obsolete that it might experience a revival soon, ha ha It might even be a cool underground object

 

I never thought streaming services would succeed because you never really own the music like you do with LPs and CDs. That shows what I know. It seems many people, especially Millennials, are quite happy with never owning hard copies of music media. In fact they prefer not having to store their music in racks or shelves and not having to move their collection when they move to a new city.

However, I find that with many of my LPs, just picking up the cover brings to mind all sorts of experiences and emotions—-when I first heard it, who recommended it to me, where I bought it, which tracks I like the most, etc.—-and these memories make the listening experience richer. My CDs don’t trigger quite the same feelings, and I doubt streaming or listening to computer files would trigger any at all.

 

I would say a lot of young people are into vinyl and still CD in Asia where most of the people actually live. So while the US and Canada may have left the format that isn't entirely true anywhere else.

Currently Billie Eilish is the pop phenom artist 17 years old and a big seller - she has several releases of the same album on CD - I saw three versions at the CD Reocrd shop near me and she has multiple coloured vinyl and boxed sets. Her target listener is under 20 I suspect. CD has always and still is very big in Japan. https://www.amazon.com/WΗΕΝ-ΑSLΕΕΡ-...=Billie+Eilish&qid=1558565370&s=music&sr=1-13

And there are an awful lot of dedicated CD Transport machines out there and dedicated CD players.Sales have declined that is true but that is also partly due to to competing entertainments.

 

Following on that, I would say it must be significantly more economical to continue to produce them (vs. vinyl) as the market declines. I would think they will be produced for as long as there are a supporting number of active transports/players/drives among consumers.

 

Rumours of [CD's] death have been greatly exaggerated.

 

Sorry, there was a typo in my response. This is what I meant to type...

Even when I compared my (quite expensive) DAC 4.1/X Balanced Signature to my AN TT-2 Deluxe, I preferred the vinyl. I had a reviewer friend over for a visit to compare the same album digitally versus on vinyl and he felt the same. Digital was nice but the vinyl WAS better.

I think auto correct changed what I wrote a little bit so I have added a few words here just to clarify what I was trying to say.

I do want to say that I disagree with Richard’s threshold for good analog sound. My daughter has the Rega RP-1 with Performance Pack. When my Io Gold MC cartridge was in for repair, I used her turntable for a little while, through my system. It sounded ridiculously good for the money. I wasn’t impressed with it before when it fed her inexpensive Rega integrated amplifier with Phono. When it’s signal went through my AN M6 Phono preamp, it sounded really good! So, at some point have a listen to a really good Phono preamp and then see how you feel about your turntable.

Perhaps your experience will mirror mine.

 

To follow on what Don said,
I have always found my vinyl rig to be more satisfying than my CD system, even when comparing the same recording (I have several on both CD and Vnyl, and one or two on R2R). While there can be obvious differences in the mastering for CD vs. vinyl, I get prettty consistent results across labels and releases.

The amusing thing to me is that my CD subsystem costs about 1.5 times as much as my vinyl (at MSRP) and more than 3.5 times my tape system. Further, on comparisons, the tape sounds the best of all (and on 7.5IPS 4 track commercial tapes, not the multi-hundred dollar 2 track/15IPS master releases).

The diffculty with tape is that the number of tapes I am interested in is very small and I am not inclined to gamble on some of the really expensive jazz tapes on Fleabay. I don't listen to much rock, so Beatles tapes and the like are pretty much off the table.

Rather than list the related equipment, check my profile.

 

I would make a note though that when people compare the same album - the albums are often not the same especially virtually any album on CD manufactured in the 1980s - terrible transfers over to CD - that is a LOT of albums. The reverse problem is now happening with new LPs that are merely copied from CD or worse MP3 transfers so new vinyl is being dumped on.

My comparison was mainly with the NAD 533 Turntable - which was a Rega Planar 2 and a Goldring 1040 (which is what the AN IQ carts are based on) and then Shure M97xE cartridge (The Goldring was awful). Rega 250 arm. Into my OTO phono stage.

While I had a few LPs that completely anhialated my CD versions like Ray Charles which was particularly superior on LP - most of the time it was relatively equal and often times superior on CD - CD player was the Cambridge Audio CD6 designed by Pink Triangle's John Westlake. I bought it in 1996 and it still works like a charm with 24 power supplies and balanced outs no less. A bit of a tank using the Disc Magic transport - the follow up machines were rubbish when John left. Though the new transport CXC is pretty sweet for the money.

I think it somewhat matters which you grew up with. Vinylphiles tend to ignore surface noise as an issue - there is no surface noise with CD or digital so a large chunk of this for someone under say my age - 45 - who grew up on digital may very well have a tougher time accepting the way more obvious weakness of listening to their music and hearing the occasional loud POP or hiss in the background during soft passages. None of this exists in digital. Further I had issues with inner groove distortion on the last track of many MANY records with the budget players where there would be high pitched sibilence on female vocals and channel shifting where sound would come out either the left or the right channel on those final tracks. The Shure cartridge was a vastly better tracker than the Goldring on this score but the Shure sounded rounded off and dull dynamically.

When I went to my first TT2 with the AN/Rega 250 cart (Arm 3, IQ3) that was a transformative experience - noise dropped, less surface noise, no inner groove issues - the occasional imbalance but could have been second hand vinyl issues.

Still I would never recommend those first turntables or my Rega clone over my Cambridge Audio CD 6. The Rega clone beat it occasionally but so did the reverse. To me the Regas are just not good enough sounding to have to to put up with the hassle of vinyl. It's the same argument I make with tubes - tube amps have to be a LOT better than a SS amp for me to put up with the hassle and expense and (fire safety and electric shock leading to death) issues with tube amplifiers. Especially with stuff from China. King of KingKo noted to me that someof the stuff he has repaired from the Chinese are potentially extremely dangerous and it is being sent to the US and Canada without any safety checks. Having 2 people be responsible for millions of goods entering the country isn't exactly inspiring. And with no CE designation if you have a fire you will not be insured. But that's another issue.

Now obviously for me - I think highly of vinyl and tubes so much so that I have and intend to invest healthily into it over the SS and CD formats. Although I continue to investigate SS and try class D and Class T and always try CD and digital.

Nelson Pass SIT amplifiers may be in the right direction for example. I feel like a really great tube maker like Audio Note could actually make a class leading SS - the problem, with SS designers is that they don;t have very good ears if what they think sounds good is Krell or Bryston etc. If that is the quality of the designer's EAR then there isn't much chance they'll design anything that sounds good - ahem Momentum - meh.

So maybe Peter could make a Class A no feedback SS amplifier but actually use QUALITY parts instead of the Chinese assembly line rubbish most big SS makers put out. C Cores and AN caps etc.

Consider that they just made part of a computer audio card! That's as SS as it gets and people are raving about that and it's a cheap little doohickey.

 

I pretty much agree with you on all counts, Richard. In fact, it was a big relief for me when our host explained to me that there are just some recordings where the transfer to CD/digital is inherently poor because of mastering, so it will be forever in vain to try to get those recordings to sound as good in digital as the vinyl version.

I'm also with you on the IG distortion. The Rega players I have heard in others peoples' homes have suffered from that, and IG distortion is really a deal breaker for me.

My experience is too limited that I can say exactly at what price point vinyl starts to surpass digital (and digital is also very much a generalization) is based on probably two instances, including my own record player, where even a much more expensive CD player or digital system simply doesn't have the scale and weight of the record player.

Moreover, I tend to feel that - except for IG distortion - vinyl tends to fail more gracefully than digital. The reason I've poured so much money and effort into my digital rig hasn't been so much to get better sound per se but rather to get rid of this unpleasant digital sheen. A physical analogy would perhaps be to wear an itchy sweater directly on the skin.

That said, my month-long stint with just having my iPad play Tidal hifi directly into to my tube amp and my E Alnico's made me very well aware how much this hobby compares to that of say fine wines. You pay an awful lot to get what is objectively probably not very much - I can fully understand if nonaudiophiles think we're an insane crowd

 

Interesting observation @Richard Austen and something that I haven't experienced. By no means would I describe a Goldring 1040 as 'awful'! It is a long time since my old stylus wore out & was replaced by a 1042 but....

Firstly I must say that without doubt the nicest sounding MM cart I have is the IQ3. On my system I can find no fault.

I also use a Roksan Corus Black & a Goldring 1042 (using 1042 or 1012 styli - you probably know that all the Goldring 10xx styli will also fit Audio Note and Roksan bodies)

So here's the thing....

The IQ3 with an 1042 stylus sounds remarkably close to the IQ2 & unless listening very carefully A-B, it's very hard to detect a difference. Even the 1012 stylus on an IQ body sounds excellent. With both styli, surface noise is low, no inner groove issues or sibilance unless on a 'hot' recording.

Likewise the 1012 stylus on the Roksan is basically identical to the original Gyger II (the Gyger S on the 1042 stylus is even nicer sounding when fitted to the Roksan, not far off an IQ2 on the AN body).

The Goldring 1042 is itself a very pleasant cartridge & if aligned precisely, displays no distortion or sibilance on my system. Maybe your earlier experience was more to do with the turntable/arm.

You may ask why I use all these other styli on the IQ body: IQ3 & IQ2 styli are relatively expensive & I often play LPs for background listening so the Goldring versions are a perfect way of prolonging the life of the Audio Note ones, still with a really enjoyable sound.

 

My view is an Airport express should not outperform a P6. You could make a case for the Sabre Dac in my Oppo 205 sounding better. The thing is that a very cheap DAC with a decent power supply can likely do 80% to 90% of an expensive DAC. However a TT at P6 level should be musically better if not in absolute 'hi-fi' terms. As suggested look at set up. I would suggest enough shims so arm is slightly tail up with your cartridge. Also would suggest trying a different phono stage (maybe solid state) and a cable a bit above budget level (not something really expensive). How good your vinyl sounds in the end is very much dependent on quality of your records in terms of mastering. Try an AP or MFSL 45 rpm cut against a stream of the same album.

 

Yes I had the IQ3 and now the IQ1 and will end up with the IQ3 again or perhaps higher. These carts have been great. No issues. The Goldring that came with the NAD just wasn't very good. Maybe defective. It didn't last long and I went with a Shure within a month.

Indeed, if I go with Empress instead of Jinro the money saved might let me get the TT3 turntable and IQ3. So that combo is likely a lot better than my TT2 IQ1 arm 1 and Jinro.

Source first...

 

You might be pleasantly surprised if you try a 1042 stylus on your cartridge/ TT2 Richard. Alu cantilever like the IQ1 & a high grade Gyger S diamond, not expensive either.

 

I feel a bit gratified to read other people’s not-so-great experiences with Rega tables. I had Regas in mind when I was describing the limitations of entry level vinyl gear. I have two friends who started with Rega Planar 3/RB300 combos and were pretty disappointed with the sound quality compared to similar price CD players.

One of them got rid of his records altogether and now plays just CDs. The other sold the Rega and upgraded his vinyl gear first to a VPI 19-III with JMW-10 arm and later to a Garrard 401 with Siggwan arm. The Garrard/Siggwan is a particularly sweet combo.

As in all things, the key is balance. There is no point in putting a $100 Grado on a Siggwan, and no point in putting a Siggwan on an entry level table. Likewise you need a high quality phono preamp and high quality SUT and cables to bring out the full potential of the arm and table. But when you do get a well balanced, quality vinyl setup, and you have a nice collection of LPs to choose from, the digital gear tends to gather dust. At least that’s been my experience.

 

Not sure if this is the case with Spotify/Tidal, but Amazon Music has volume matching so that compressed recordings aren't any louder than uncompressed. Makes for enjoyable listening on my headphones when playing random stuff at work.

With that said, you certainly aren't alone in finding satisfaction in a cheap digital source. I run a $79 Sony blu-ray player bought from Target in my bedroom system and most of the DACs I have hooked up there have not sounded any better.

 

I suspect that the primary reason streaming music, even at high resolution, is often not of great sound quality has to do with the particular choice of digital mastering. In the CD realm there is a vast difference between different offerings and I bet that the choice for streaming would be the cheapest offering, not the one that is of the highest quality. I doubt that you will be getting the Mobile Fidelity version of the digital file. As noted above, the compressed file would actually be preferred by listeners who are on the go and not listening in a quiet room, so that kind of mastering will prevail.

The issue of CD vs. analogue is a bit more complex. My classical CD selection is considerably larger than my collection of classical LPs, and most of the CDs were never issued on LP. I think the sound of digital classical recordings is quite decent and the wide dynamic range of classical music makes CDs preferable when it comes to ticks and pops which are much more of an annoyance with classical music. Also, there are a number of older recordings that had poor mastering when they came out as LPs (e.g., 1970's DG recordings) that are much improved in their reissued CD version. I think it is important to have both CD and analogue setups to hear music reproduced at their best. It costs far more to get acceptable LP playback than digital, and given the vastly greater availability of music from digital sources, it makes more sense to start out with a modest digital setup than going the analogue route.

 

And therein lies the problem. Cost. You have to spend a ton. Even with @Don Parkhurst example of putting a kower level Rega on an M6 and it's probably tru that a top flight phono stage could bring it up... it's simply not likely to be in such a setup. Chances are it will be connected to a $1k SS amp with built in phono.

It was Save Cope and Bob Neil and my own dealer who sells Rega where they all noted that suspended tables sounded better. I agree. The Voyd was the best, TT2 and TT1 and some others consisttently sound better where it counts.

I have heard the old Voyd take out pretty much everything else.

 

There are no absolutes. It’s not always true that a suspended table sounds better. The single biggest improvement I ever made to my LP playback system was replacing my previous tables (TD 124 and VPI 19 Mk3) with a Galibier Gavia which is a high-mass, non-suspended belt drive. The noise floor dropped down to near nothing, and with the new black background the resolution of fine detail was greatly improved. Even 15 years later, I am still amazed when I lower the stylus onto a new record and I hear—Nothing. Even at high volume settings, there is virtually no groove noise, hiss or any other clue that a record is playing. Now that doesn’t happen with my usual records most of which date from the 1950s and 60s; they do have some background noise (but they also sound awesome).

 

I think the old Pink Triangle players deserve mentioning. They were awesome. Mine still is

Together with the Systemdek, they are actually a way into vinyl where you don't have to spend a ton if you're willing to buy used. My PT Too with a Helius Orion arm w Goldring Eroica HO into an EAR 834p can be had for a fraction of what my various digital setups have cost, and until I got my AN DAC 5(ish) it has outperformed my digital rigs with most recordings, not just because of the freedom from digital sheen but also in terms of scale (size of soundstage).

 

Pink Triangle Anniversary...…

 

I just bought 6 Dell tower computers, 6 EVGA Nu Audio sound cards, and 6 upgraded power supplies, and 6 DVD Read/Write drives (for backing-up and sharing downloads) to put together what I believe will be the ultimate computer for downloading and streaming hi-res files, and playing back into a hi-fi system. I will be offering them for $1100 each, with 2 TB of storage, RCA analog outputs and SPDIF (RCA) digital output, very fast i7 processor, and everything that needs to be optimized for just this purpose done right.

This will be a dedicated computer, intended as an audio component, plugged into the user's preamp or integrated amp. It will be up to the buyer to integrate Bluetooth with his laptop or simply with a keyboard. And, no monitor is included, because each user should choose the size and quality, depending on their need.

When I have finished a few, I will report just how good hi-res can sound in a high-end Audio Note system, compared to analog... NOT compared to exactly the same mastering (which cannot be done with any confidence), but just with what is available to us.

If anyone has suggestions what to include, what NOT to include, how or where to market this, and what existing products may be my competition, PLEASE comment in this thread or a PM. I am thinking of including one downloaded DSD hi-res song, just to get the buyer started.

 

Warren,

It sounds like you are putting together a serious server. I listen mostly to CDs that have been ripped by a Naim UnitiCore ripper/storage (8 TB) and Naim 555 server. What is striking is how bad a lot of currently available CDs of older pop and rock albums sound, particularly in comparison to premium label CDs of the same music; this is clearly a mastering issue. If the "bad" digital files are the ones that are offered by streaming services, then I can see why streaming will sound pretty bad. It might well be the case that "bad" version are preferable for streaming if they are highly compressed versions that will sound better in cars or on earbuds in noisy environments. The mainstream is certainly NOT catering to audiophiles.

I like rock, pop and jazz on LP. Whether it is inherent superiority of the medium or better mastering or, in the case of older material, deterioration of the master recording, there are a lot of older recordings that sound, to me, best in analogue format. But, that does not make digital unlistenable, and for a lot of music there is no analogue alternative. Also, given the incredible access that a server provides for browsing a lot of music, digital is the better starting point for someone new to the game.

By the way, the Audio Note digital set up would not be high resolution; Audio Note only supports CD level resolution. That, to me, is not a big deal--I will take a good redbook DAC any day over something that supports high resolution but is otherwise not special. The Audio Note DACs are special. I briefly got to hear their level 6 digital setup (it was being tested prior to being boxed up for installation in the customer's system), but not in direct comparison with anything else. I have actually sat in on an impromptu shootout of a DAC 3, DAC 4 and DAC 5. I liked them all, but, I thought the DAC 4 was the sweet spot --distinctly better than the DAC 3 and only slightly less open sounding than the MUCH more dear DAC 5.

 

The only thing I can suggest is for the next batch, stick with i5 processors, or really even an i3. An i7 can benefit a professional workstation or a very high end gaming machine, but has nothing to contribute to a machine where the sole intent is music playback. They do consume more power and more importantly generate more heat, which leads to the need for fans spinning louder and more often. Less money, less heat, everybody wins.

Just speaking for myself, I could never have a full size PC anywhere near my system for a variety of reasons. Were I to conclude I needed an Audio Note PCI sound card as a source, I'd have it in a PCIe thunderbolt enclosure that I'd then connect via thunderbolt 3 to a discrete Intel NUC, which is about the size of two decks of cards side by side. Compared to a tower, that arrangement would be both more discrete and much quieter - All tower computers are going to have at least three large fans (power supply, CPU, case) that would likely be audible in quiet passages, the NUC has one tiny one yet has no heat/performance problems. One can even invest in an (allegedly) audiophile grade power supply for a NUC. In this scenario I'd have my music via the network vs. local, but a 2TB M2 SSD for the NUC would only be another $200 for those who wanted local storage.

It would be nice if eventually Linux or Mac drivers became available for the EVGA cards, for no other reason then Windows would never be my first choice for a dedicated music PC.