Music Matters Definitive Blue Note 45 RPM and 33 & 1/3 RPM vinyl series (pt7)

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by MilesSmiles, Jun 13, 2014.

  1. timzigs

    timzigs Forum Resident

    Location:
    South Central PA
    Well said. And Shorter's arrangements on these records, as well as the stuff he did with Miles, are so unique and creative. It's hard not to listen to many of his songs and not come away with something new each time. An incredible talent.
     
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  2. timzigs

    timzigs Forum Resident

    Location:
    South Central PA
    The King version of Juju sounds really good too. I've not heard the MMJ version, but I think I remember reading that it wasn't one of the better sounding ones?? The King has a more depth and warmth to it than the Liberty I heard.
     
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  3. recstar24

    recstar24 Senior Member

    Location:
    Glen Ellyn, IL
    Shorter is like the only jazz arranger where more often than not the song titles actually make sense and sound like the music :laugh:
     
  4. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    Pretty much from what I've heard. A couple of exceptions but not many I've come across.

    The way you spoke of Soothsayer, it sounded like it might become your favorite jazz album, but the MM seemed out of reach. I suspect that just buying an original will beat the pants off "streaming" and it isn't costly.
     
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  5. musictoad

    musictoad Forum Resident

    Location:
    Salt Lake City, UT
    For sure, and you have a point. I'm kinda an all or nothing guy. I don't like to fill my collection with vinyl that isn't the best pressing or at least near it. If I can't get the optimal pressing I'd rather have the CD which is also miles better than streaming but also gives me flexibility of using in the car, etc. If I'm gonna grab something on vinyl it's gotta be because it's vastly superior...the best of the rest...you get my drift.

    I mean, I've still only heard this album once, so I want to spend more time with it anyway. If I do fall in love and it's not just a honeymoon phase, maybe I'll spring the dough for the MMJ.

    Anyway, I dunno why I feel the need to explain myself but there ya go. :righton:
     
  6. timzigs

    timzigs Forum Resident

    Location:
    South Central PA
    No one with an avatar related to great music has to explain him/herself :). I saw them perform live in San Diego in '07...great show. Hey, even "A Night Like This" has a sax solo!
     
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  7. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    I hear you and no need to explain. I'm a huge fan of Music Matters but a bigger fan of Wayne Shorter and Blue Note music in general. Sometimes, the prices on the MM titles become out of whack with reason for my taste. Soothsayer is an example of this. Even when it was $100 and certainly when it was $125 I felt it was too far out of line with how much an original goes for. Since this album wasn't issued until 1979 it isn't an expensive one.

    If Music Matters release it on SRX one day, I'll check it out. If it betters my original Blue Note, I'll sell the Blue Note and keep the MM. But this isn't currently a MM title that I find can be had for a reasonable price. When a reissue goes for ten times what an original goes for, that becomes a bit much to my way of thinking. Music Matters is one of the very few labels for which I will sometimes pay more for their reissues than an original or older reissue because they are so damned good. In fact I am not sure I can say that about any other label. Maybe AP, certainly not MoFi, certainly not SC...
     
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  8. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    ORG?
     
  9. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    A couple of times, yes. I like Grundman's double 45 cut of the debut Weather Report album, for example.

    For my taste, no reissue label has been as consistent as MM but that is just speaking of my own personal taste in sonics.

    As a general rule, however, I tend not to buy reissues when they are priced similar or even higher than originals. In my experience they are rarely as good and something about vinyl as a hobby to me was never really about sealed/new vinyl anyway. Hence I have very little that seduces me just because it is "new." Blue Note's catalog is an exception for me with MM because they have done such a great job with the sound.
     
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  10. I'm really loving and enjoying these MM issues, but I rethink it is very fair to say. that as great as they are, they do sound somewhat different than the originals.

    And of course I get that any reissue will never sound exactly like the original of any album.
     
  11. Cervelo

    Cervelo Forum Resident

    Location:
    Upstate, NY
    I have an original (NM) that I picked up for $12.00 a couple of years ago. Nowhere near the sound quality of a MM release.
     
  12. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    Maybe that's part of why it was $12 and Music Matters is now pushing $200?

    Soothsayer is one of the few MM LPs I don't have, but unless it comes down quite a bit, the original does nicely for me.
     
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  13. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    I get it. And a properly done CD (of which they are in the minority) can sound very good.
     
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  14. dminches

    dminches Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cherry Hill, NJ
    I recall Joe (or Kevin Gray, or both) saying a number of times that their goal is not to try to replicate originals. So, the fact that they sound different is expected. They are applying their own professional perspective to how the final product should sound.
     
  15. musictoad

    musictoad Forum Resident

    Location:
    Salt Lake City, UT
    I think it's also important to point out that the originals are not inherently more pure or closer to the way the musicians sounded in the studio just because they are originals. The engineer of those originals had to make subjective decisions just the same as Hoffman/Gray/Joe have.
     
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  16. Admerr

    Admerr Forum Resident

    They’re also not limited/restricted by their equipment and the equipment of the time. They have the opportunity to try and give us a glimpse into what that room actually sounded like.
     
  17. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    I personally don’t buy the notion that RVGs equipment was “limited” except in some of the choices he made (IE: Neumann mics). By the standards of the day or now, he made some of the very best recordings of all time.

    He was cutting records for the average turntable of the time, but we should keep in mind that Kevin Gray can only capture what is on the tapes.
     
  18. Aura

    Aura Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin, Texas
    Dayum, that eBay price sucks. I bought a numbered copy of Soothsayer from Elusive Disc @ 2.5-3 years ago for $30 - 20% off $49.99 (when they still allowed coupons for MM titles). So glad I bought all those Shorter titles earlier. I'm at nearly 80 MM titles and don't really want anything else enough to bid that high. Focusing these days on TP, whose QA may be improving over the first 5 titles I bought, and I will also give the BN80 series a chance.
     
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  19. recstar24

    recstar24 Senior Member

    Location:
    Glen Ellyn, IL
    I think the point he was trying to make, and of which joe has stated in various interviews and quotes here and elsewhere, is that RVG did have to make some specific mastering choices in order to cut the record to sound good on the home user equipment of the day - rolling off bass below 80hz, bumping up the upper midrange presence region, etc. RVG I’m sure wasnt necessarily limited based on his equipment/mastering/cutting wise, but it’s pretty clear a RVG cut has a very specific sound signature.
     
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  20. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    Yes, but he can make "improvements" after the fact, with frequency equalization.
     
  21. SoundDoctor

    SoundDoctor Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    The BN80 series is a fantastic value so far...
     
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  22. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    Right. But that was not about RVG’s equipment. The way I read the comment was that it was about both the engineering equipment of the era and the end user equipment of the era.

    Incidentally, I own some Blue Note originals and recuts by RVG, and in my view they are not all as singular in their approach as some might believe. From where I have compared, I have tended to prefer Music Matters reissues personally, but the dedicated following the originals have speaks for itself. In the end it comes down to individual taste. But originals or reissues, the original recordings have stood the test of time.
     
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  23. recstar24

    recstar24 Senior Member

    Location:
    Glen Ellyn, IL
    Agreed - I don’t think there is anything inherently advanced with how records are cut or pressed today in comparison to the 50’s and 60’s; in fact, I’m sure they more often than not are using the same cutter lathe and record presses of yesteryear! RVG would not have been limited on his end to cut with full bass and dynamics; unfortunately, if he did so it would probably have made grandmas ole record console skip profusely.

    For the very few BN original and recut originals I do have, I would describe the sound signature as very “Grado” like - if you’ve ever listened to a set of grado cans like the rs1’s, you hear very little low bass, a nice mid bass thump, a somewhat shouty and leaky upper midrange, which really is a very fun and exciting sound. My copy of sidewinder is a great example of this and i love it so much I’ve not felt the urge to “upgrade” to the AP or MM.
     
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  24. musictoad

    musictoad Forum Resident

    Location:
    Salt Lake City, UT
    Thanks for that comparison. It's good to know, because I don't jive with the Grado signature. Too thin and bright for my taste.
     
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  25. recstar24

    recstar24 Senior Member

    Location:
    Glen Ellyn, IL
    Understood! Grado’s are actually my favorite cans, but I know for many users they can come off as bring a bit bright and even shrill. The playback equipment of the RVG years for the most part was pretty lacking, and RVG was just really smart in his EQ choices on compensating for it, while also making sure records played back relatively well and with consistency.
     
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