I agree that it would be useful for this thread to be revived. I am still saving for an Audio Desk and could use every bit of info. The 2019 model seems to have some more upgrades. Has anyone tried to use the QS Audio LP cleaning solution by Tonar? This is my favourite cleaning solution in Vacuum RCM like Okki Nokki and Clearaudio, etc.
I have a new observation: I often buy records second hand. But I always clean them. Before I play them. Sometimes and seldom it happens that despite how you clean the record it will still be dirty! This has also happened to others that use vacuum cleaners. That I have seen in threads. This last time it happened a week ago, I were yet another time unprepared for it.. because I thought I had all the bases covered.. I put 5 records in heated ~35°C distilled ~4L water 5 and drops yes dishwasher and 3 droops Triton x-100 30 min ultrasonic. (I don't like the dishwasher but I rinse with the spin cleaner afterwards anyway). My thoughts is that the invisible small scrubbing bubbles will get in to the bottom of the grooves and do it's magic.. (and that's why I went into ultrasonic in the first place!) I have the brown spinn cleaner with the black filt brunches. On this forum someone pointed out that they have a gap between them that the yellow ones do not have.. I had got the new yellow felt pads and they have a tighter fit and supposedly do a better job. I used distilled water and original spinn cleaner fluid MK3. 3 rotations each direction. Now one of the records gave a big lump of dust goo out from the grooves. Start with a clean stylus and at the end after 20 min there it is.. Why? I do not know. But some times I guess you get a record that has been played back in the time then conical stylus were more common and by someone that do not clean what so ever their records and so on. (Yes the record were dusty when I took it out from the sleeve.. but surface dust do not bother me and will get cleaned off it is the dirt that are invisible in to the groove that is the issue.. Maybe the dust and dirt is grinded and pressed down into the groove by the usage of the previous owner.. ..I do not know. But what I know is that THIS type of dirt on this type of record it will NOT be cleaned out by ultrasonic, spinn clean or vacuum aperently. (Yes new records or differently used records is different story and YOU will never encounter this phenomenon) What I am trying to say is that ultrasonic or aperently any other method for that matter, is not the holy grail and will not clean out the bottom of the grove if you came across this type of invisible (down in the groove) dirt. Maybe it can and maybe will wet and degrease the dirt so that the stylus can easier "dig" it out from the grove when you play the record later on. But again this is on few second hand records that show me how inadequate my cleaning regime was. I will not go and intensify it, the problem is that it is only ≤5% of the used records that needs more cleaning clearly, but it is no way to determine which of the records it is. Then I put unnecessary time and effort to "over cleaning" more than 95% of the records I bring home. Food for thoughts. It is just my experience. Keep them spinning!
@Optimize I recall that during the debate on whether US cleaning clips the higher frequencies, you took two audio files for comparison. Did you ever make a conclusion from the comparison?
I believe that thought has been debunked. There was a comment in the VPI forums which was later rescinded.
I were hoping that someone that had computer skills that could jump in and do some audio program comparison between the two files. Unfortunately I do not possess the skills.. Oh I didn't know that this went over to another forum.. .. anyway I am only here.
I was looking forward to @hammr7 ’s next instalment of vinyl cleaning. He seems particularly well informed. I am having good results with US cleaning followed by a brushed rinse in deionised water using a Knosti. However, every now and then I get a record that appears to be mildly pitted, or pock-marked. Only visible at a certain angle to the light. Little or no noticeable degradation to the sound (well, to my old ears in any case), but I wonder whether it’s the US cleaning making those marks...
Unfortunately not really. Bit of a missed opportunity. Kirmuss was so dominant. No discussion about the sonic differences between the results of the different cleaning methods. So, essentially you spent you time better than I did.
This is the best I can do. They’re only visible when you tilt the record towards the light, hence it looks like there’s only one in each photo, whereas in reality when you keep tilting the record in the light there are dozens of them all over.
I guess it's on one in every ~30 of my records. I wonder what it's due to. Surprising that it doesn't seem to affect the sound.
That pitting can happen even at the pressing plant so it might be a pressing issue. I have some records like that, that have never been cleaned on any machine (well until i did clean them but the pitting was there). I figure you would've noticed them before you cleaned them if they were there before hand, so perhaps US cleaning is the cause of it. Might be worth buying a cheap $2 record in VG+ or better condition and doing some tests just in case. It could that, perhaps, your method, rather than US itself is causing those pits.
That 'pitting' on a vinyl record's surface is not caused by ultrasonic cleaning. I read many, many years ago on one of the then prominent U.K. Hi-Fi magazines that this defect was caused by dirt getting into the plating baths during the course of the manufacturing stage. It is a common defect and I have seen it on records over five decades! The more quality oriented manufacturing facilities seem to be able to avoid this though, most of the time, in my experience.
Thanks for the pictures. And what it is worth I do also think that it has anything with the ultrasound cleaning machine. And it's from the manufacturer.
Sorry to have abandoned this post for so long. The pitting is definitely not from ultrasonic cleaning. As already noted by Satrus, it was likely the result of contamination as the record stamper was being manufactured. The damage was not a sufficient hit on sound reproduction for the specific stamper to be scrapped. I will eventually submit my take on the physical and chemical interactions of vinyl LPs in an ultrasonic bath. Unfortunately life is much too hectic at the moment, both personally and professionally. Once I am able to attack the subject, I will provide a generic overview of what to expect under normal operating conditions, and give some guidance on limits to "normal". Those limits will vary as a function of bath temperature, cleaning time, and the composition of the cleaning solution. To a lesser extent the limits will vary based upon LP formulation. I will unmask some of the likely cleaning solution formulations that companies try to keep secret to build profit margins (custom cleaning solutions, like HP ink cartridges, have incredible profit margins). And I will try to address some of the specific issues encountered by users. Many of the key issues and answers have already been touched upon in this and similar threads, but have been posed as possibilities. I will simply provide a technical support rationale for those prior answers I believe to be true.
It should be interesting to read! The thing I noticed when I used a lot of IPA in the 6L bath. Was that I got to see all the small bubbles. I believe that it was due to the alcohol lower surface tension. But in normal distilled water even if a wetting agent is used and elevated temperatures ~35°C I have never seen the bubbles prior or after that time. Can it be that the cavitation (scrubbing bubbles) will not occur at all if the surface tension and other forces make them impossible to form/make the expansion and collapse of the bubbles?! It is hard to know if cavitation occur at all when there is no visual confirmation at all.
My current proportions of distilled water, IPA and a wetting agent are: 9.9 liters distilled water 275.6 ml isopropyl 11.4 ml wetting agent The temperature is steady at 35°C since I have a radiator which keeps keep the temperatures from rising. I definitely get some bubbles on the surface, especially where the solution hits the tank wall.
Did you actually read the whole thread or just do a search? Here is one of the quotes by Harry W. who has designed and built vacuum cleaners but is now supportive of ultrasonic cleaners. by Harry » Tue May 26, 2015 10:31 pm A few answers: After almost 6 months of cleaning using the US and vacuum systems if done right there is no HF loss, just ultra clean records. I use a 9 liter machine, distilled water, 4 drops of surfactant, two drops of clear dish-washing liquid. The record is rotated one time and it takes roughly 5 seconds, it is immediately wiped off and put on the Cyclone with a distilled water rinse and bi-directional cleaning. A small fish tank filter with carbon filters wrapped in a coffee machine filter is used together to keep the water spotless. The fish filter is left on at all times except when cleaning. Using this system I can clean any record to a better than new groove (if not damaged by "others") that is silent and master tape sounding. The whole shooting match costs roughly $1500.00 and will last for decades. No other system will get a record this clean and noiseless and still keep it in original condition. HW Harry Admin Posts: 1355 Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:38 pm
No that was not what I were looking for. I thought that you ment that my specific observations was discussed there. Thanks this is also interesting!
