The appeal of New Country music?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Johnny Action, Sep 9, 2019.

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  1. I'm not so much reporting about what I think what should be called -- but, rather, what I think the general populace thinks of (now) when these terms are thrown around.

    I'm just 50 (this year), and over the last 10 years or so I've come to learn that it does no good to argue the way things ought to be classified. And as I get older, I expect it'll only get worse (i.e. what the general populace thinks), vs. what I've always thought or "known" to be the norms I grew up with.

    Then in 20 years, by the time I'm 70, what I think will matter several hills of beans even less than it does now -- as the new norms will be formed by everyone who's 30-50 years younger than me then (meaning in 2039).

    Ain't none of these genre classifications static. Because while I agree Country Music used to be something else entirely, it sure isn't like that any more. At least what passes on Country Music Radio these days.

    The term "Americana" at least gives a chance for a wider definition, that encompasses a whole lot of country and country-related styles. And as a plus, ain't nobody categorizing 'bro country' as "Americana".
     
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  2. dubious title

    dubious title Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ontario
    To quote you from the "unusual covers of classic rock songs" post regarding my posting a song I liked.

    "Absolutely, unabashedly, undisputedly horrible" is how I feel about your tautologies.
     
  3. Evethingandnothing

    Evethingandnothing Forum Resident

    Location:
    Devon
    Historical revision. Gosh!. Black Sabbath is Hard Rock now 'cos it ain't as heavy as whatever the latest Metal band is. I don't like this. If the music is different from what the originators of the genre did, then surely it should be called something else rather than calling the original something else. But, of course you're right. My sensibilities are nothing to the juggernaut of fashionable ignorance.
     
  4. ghostnotes

    ghostnotes Wish you were here.

    Location:
    Charlotte, NC
    If anyone finds it helpful, Rateyourmusic.com is always a good resource for exploration of genres and subgenres IMO. You can click within the genre tree to move around and read more about specific subgenres. Much of this thread's discussion revolves around "Country Pop" in the subgenre list below (which itself breaks down to Bro Country, Urban Country, and Nashville Sound), while others have been quick to point out that "Modern Country" can mean much more than Country Pop depending on the style of the music. RYM does a decent job explaining the labels/terms and why they came about (good context).

    Country - Music Genres - Rate Your Music

     
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  5. Wombat Reynolds

    Wombat Reynolds Jimmy Page stole all my best riffs.

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA, USA

    Like I said - social justice 101.



    Is rap and hip hop still predominately black? Honest question, I dont know. Any attempt you make to use rap as an example of "negative blackness" will surely be countered with some virulent white boi rap. You cant make a case for it.
     
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  6. Evethingandnothing

    Evethingandnothing Forum Resident

    Location:
    Devon

    "Bluegrass remained a popular form of traditional country even as it evolved in sophistication from Bill Monroe to Flatt and Scruggs"

    That's funny as hell. Flat & Scruggs were part of Bill Monroe's band that invented Bluegrass. There's nowhere "from" or "to" in that equation.
     
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  7. KJTC

    KJTC Forum Resident

    Location:
    NYC
    They weren’t original members of the band, though. They joined a few years in, and resigned to do their own thing shortly thereafter. Most of their work was separate from Monroe and influential in its own right. The style definitely evolved from Monroe to Flatt & Scruggs.
     
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  8. Evethingandnothing

    Evethingandnothing Forum Resident

    Location:
    Devon
    I disagree. Bill Monroe And His Bluegrass Boys did not play actual Bluegrass music until Flatt and Scruggs joined the band in 1945. It is my estimation that Bill himself always played Bluegrass but didn't find musicians that could interpret his vision until that '45 band where the genre was born. After Flatt & Scruggs left, Bill Monroe got Jimmy Martin into the band and did some of the most sophisticated Bluegrass ever, imo. Indeed, I think most of the innovations in Bluegrass were still coming from Bill's band right through the 50's & 60's.

    My favourite Bluegrass band is the Stanley Brothers, btw. So my observations are not as a Bill Monroe obsessive or anything, but I do love it. I love Flatt & Scruggs too, btw.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
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  9. This seems entirely correct to me. Alt-Country and Americana also seem (to me) largely outside of mainstream "modern" country -- as exemplified by what's on most (pop-)country radio these days. I would think there's virtually no crossover at all between "Alt-Country/Americana" on the one hand... ...and "Modern Country" aka pop-country (of which 'bro country' seems to be a big part, and 'urban country' seems at least half-related) on the other.

    And I would argue that the vast majority of people 40 and under probably think of "country pop" when they think of "country". Or they sure aren't thinking of Western Swing, that's for sure (statistically speaking, of course, because I certainly realize there are plenty of people who know better -- just not the majority of people).

    The masses (great and small, washed and unwashed) are going to get a lot of their definitional understanding of this stuff from pop culture, because that's all they've got to go on (or all they've ever been exposed to). And that includes both fans of "pop-country" and also those decidedly haters of "pop-country" -- and probably some in between too.

    And hell, I'm betting there's a ton of people who wouldn't have any better understanding of what's representational of country music, than if you asked them what jazz was. (And that's probably always been like that too -- so this isn't anything new.) Thinking back to when I was in college in the late 80's, in the Midwest no less (upstate Illinois, in a town of 30,000, a good 45-minutes from any town over 100,000). 75% of the other college students I was with there were probably either from the greater Chicago area (200 miles away), or else the greater St. Louis area (similar distance), or other very similar suburban and in some cases more urban environs from father way still.

    I'm also betting most of that 75% of the folks I went to college with back then, had a pretty limited exposure to country music back then too (I know I certainly did), barely more than I'd ever heard any jazz before. I might have been able to name 6-8 country artists (2 of which I might have only known from the occasional Hee-Haw rerun). Which admittedly is twice as many jazz musicians as I could have named before I took a 200-level class in jazz music history my sophomore year in college.

    Though I'll readily admit that maybe as many as 15%-20% of those I went to college with, had some greatest sense of what country music was (back then) -- even though we were all living in a small college town of 30,000, that was literally out in the country.

    The only way anyone knows any of this stuff, other than music geeks like us, is either what's on the radio, or what other (usually older) family members might have listened to, or else maybe it was the prevailing kind of music where we grew up.

    I'm sure it's a little different down in the south, some (most?) of the southwest, and a good bit of the Midwest (as long as you grew up outside of the great urban centers of the Midwest). The vast majority of people growing up in Iowa and Nebraska, for instance, would probably have a better idea of what Country Music is, than say those who grew up in and around Chicago, St. Louis, or even Minneapolis.
     
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  10. Dillydipper

    Dillydipper Space-Age luddite

    Location:
    Central PA
    As a "radio guy" who did his very first Country radio gig halfway through my career in Minneapolis (and the gig before that in Des Moines IA), I have to challenge that perspective. :)

    And of course, anybody on this board will challenge you, if you make enough of an informed, authoritative, experienced contribution based on your overall knowledge and firsthand observation, based on their own attempts to discount your facts with their exceptions. It's the nature of this beast, so don't take it personally!

    What I have seen in my observations on Country Radio (when considering the POV of the most successful, long-running stations and formats in a market) is, what "real Country is, is a fallacy driven by a need to relate and empathize with the audiences' viewpoint, more so than the nature of the music (and how it's changed). They know the stations' ace in the hole is that identification with the demographic and lifestyle (now parsed as the, "lifegroup" - now, ain't that folsky!), allows them to fend-off challengers playing younger music, to remain the town's "heritage" Country station, eventually able to adopt the younger titles of the competition faster, once they've "softened-'em-up" for the familiarity of their older-skewing audience.

    There is also a trackable cycle of putting the more established superstars out to pasture every seven years, to keep the profile of the music more relevant to their efforts of freshening the audience. This is not a hard-and-fast rule, but impossible to ignore once you start tracking it, as do consultants and Nashville observers.

    The identification of "us" being "jest plain folk, just like y'all" is obviously a positioning tactic that has held-off more competition in this format than just about any other fluid audience migration in any other format competition on the radio world, other similar situations being obviously in the talk and religious radio areas. Essentially, it's that "wink-and-a-nod" of bonding with th audience that contributes to the success of all these. And, as far as the music itself in Country, the "heritage" and "true legacy" of the genre is mostly determined by a listeners' age, and when they bought-in at first.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
  11. Duke Fame

    Duke Fame Sold out the Enormodome

    Location:
    Tampa, FL
    Well, I'll be 100% honest, I didn't know for sure either. It was an educated guess, but......

    Rap Music: Top Rap Songs Chart

    From what I can tell that's 23.5 for 25. In a funny coincidence, Billy Ray Cyrus is featured with Lil Nas X on the #3 song.
     
  12. Johnny Action

    Johnny Action Forum President Thread Starter

    Location:
    Kailua, Hawai’i
    I was referring to the music. You were referring to my motivations. Entirely different matters. Think about it.

    Let’s just stop responding to each other, at least in this thread. It’s getting boring and tiresome. Deal?
     
  13. Bluesman Mark

    Bluesman Mark I'm supposed to put something witty here....

    Location:
    Iowa
    The first thing I heard by Stapleton was his cover of Tennessee Whiskey. As a massive soul & blues fan, I picked up immediately on the arrangement he used being very similar to Etta James' classic I'd Rather Go Blind, (my all time favorite song of them all, in any genre), in it's tempo, feel & reverbed guitar. I became a fan right then. His music is a mix of outlaw country, southern rock, southern soul & blues, the latter three of which are my favorite musical genres. That 1st album & his 2 followups did not disappoint. Neither did the concert we went to back in July.
     
  14. dubious title

    dubious title Forum Resident

    Location:
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    It is getting boring and tiresome. Agreed and deal.

    Let's talk about Vangelis and the time I saw Ozric Tentacles.
     
  15. All I know is that my BS meter didn't move a millimeter from the Stapleton TV appearances and his one Austin City Limits appearance I saw -- though granted, none of those three subgenres you mention (that Stapleton fits into) are areas I listen to very much (and probably southern soul & blues probably being the one I'm the most familiar with).

    When I say he seemed like the real deal, I'm *NOT* saying that from the perspective of knowing what "is" and "isn't" the real deal (at least when it comes to all this wider-assortment of Americana stuff). Really, all I know is my BS meter (though whether it's any good or not, is another matter).

    Alabama Shakes is another southern group that's not like anything I listen to (or know all that much about), but my BS meter doesn't move a millimeter for Brittany Howard either (had to google her name to include it here).

    All I'm looking for is some one -- or a band -- that can sing and perform in a way that can really hold a room. I remember the last time I heard Alabama Shakes on SNL (not sure if it was their only appearance, or maybe their 2nd one) -- but the *SECOND* song they did was alternately really soft and quiet, and really loud and in your face. And I mean **REALLY** soft in the quiet parts (like you could hear a few pins drop). Who does that kind of a song on TV? And on SNL, no less?

    That moved me almost as much as Sturgill's SNL thing with the those crazy horns did. That loud/soft thing is hard as hell to pull off in the moment (just for those in the room), but how the hell she got that to work on TV is beyond me (meaning the loud/super-soft thing she did). Spine tingling is probably too hyperbolic a way to describe it, but it was another performance I immediately rewatched on the DVR 2-3 times immediately after.

    (Alabama Shakes isn't exactly Country, I realize, but I'd lump them in with the wider "Americana" descriptor. At least that seems like at least one sort of place they're coming from.)
     
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  16. crookedbill

    crookedbill Forum Resident

    Some country purists would say Stapleton isn't country at all, rather soul w/ country twang. There's something to that. His arrangements and singing style have more in common with somebody like Otis Redding than most of his country contemporaries.

    I think this is why Stapleton is so popular and well liked across various demographics, and one of the biggest sellers outside the traditional Nashville machine (though he was very much part of that machine as a songwriter for many years). He's does a mixture of things that most people, regardless of age, gender, and race, enjoy and recognize (at least on a subliminal level) as "classic" or "vintage" - country, rock, soul etc.

    Most people who wouldn't touch country would listen to Stapleton and say, "wait a second, I actually enjoy this." Just search "Chris Stapleton reaction" videos on YouTube and you'll see all kinds of people being blown away.
     
  17. Frangelico

    Frangelico Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    You should go post on Daily Kos. This isn’t a political website.
     
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  18. Johnny Action

    Johnny Action Forum President Thread Starter

    Location:
    Kailua, Hawai’i
    Ozrics and Vangelis? Deal! Start a thread (include a link from a dubious source...:shh:) and I’ll be there!
     
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  19. NaturalD

    NaturalD The King of Pop

    Location:
    Boston, Mass., USA
    I was remarking on all the people who brought their politics to this discussion about the lyric content of some music. Maybe you should tell those people, but perhaps their political comments didn't bother you?
     
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  20. Frangelico

    Frangelico Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Actually, it sounds like you’re calling people you disagree with witch hunters. The “journal” that is linked is hardly “academic” - it is propaganda - opinion masquerading as “fact” and ensconced in an anti-intellectual positive feedback loop.
     
  21. Bluesman Mark

    Bluesman Mark I'm supposed to put something witty here....

    Location:
    Iowa
    I can see that. As I'm not entirely a "purist" regarding country music. Growing up in NC in the 60s/70s, I heard it a lot though. My mother loved it & played it on the radio, as well as paying the records & her & dad went to all the package shows in Charlotte, taking me along with them.

    Because of that I "hated" country for a long time. Until the outlaw movement started up, (& I was also old enough to hear & discern the parallels between country & southern rock), I didn't listen to it. From there I developed a taste for what I considered grittier, more authentic country, & even began to appreciate some "countrypolitan"Billy Sherrill sounds via George Jones. Still, most of it I never got into other than that.

    However, mentioning Otis Redding & southern soul, there's a lot of cross pollination between southern soul & 60s/70s country. She's All I Got was originally a southern soul song, recorded by Freddie North, then Johnny Paycheck & other country artists covered it. Candi Staton did a soulful version of Stand By Your Man. And, a lot of the southern session musicians, (outside of Stax & Hi especially, & Muscle Shoals to an extent), might do a session with Wilson Pickett one day, & Marty Robbins the next. The Rufus Thomas family always listened to the Grand Ol Opry, according to them, & Issac Hayes was quoted as saying he grew up in a diet of gospel & country on the radio.

    Thematically & lyrically, there's a lot of overlap as well, especially with cheating songs, between the two genres. And, the deeper & deeper I delve into more obscure southern soul, the more twangy licks & rhythmic patterns I discover, all from a country influence.

    In that context, what Chris Stapleton is doing isn't anything country or soul artists haven't done for decades.
     
  22. Evethingandnothing

    Evethingandnothing Forum Resident

    Location:
    Devon
    I don't mind other influences mixing it up with country. Early Western Swing is about 80% Jazz. Regarding Chris Stapleton, is this just about how to categorise him as an artist? Is Neil Young a country artist? He's done some very country sounding records. So I'd say yes, but only when he's doing country.
     
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  23. Bluesman Mark

    Bluesman Mark I'm supposed to put something witty here....

    Location:
    Iowa
    I see Stapleton as a modern version of traditional/outlaw country, who has a vast resource of influences he draws upon, including blues, southern rock & soul. Neil Young, (whom I love), I see more as Americana/R&R than straight out country.

    Now of course, either artist can move between categories/genres, as they explore their restless natures. In fact, your comparison of Stapleton & Young is extremely apt, as along with playing bluegrass in the Steeldrivers, he played southern/roots rock in the Jompson Brothers. He played Barely Alive off the Jompson Brothers album when I saw him back in July in fact.

    Like Young, though I think he goes with his strengths, he also refuses to be pigeonholed the way so many new country artists tend to let themselves be. That's what makes him & his work satisfying & interesting.
     
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  24. Greenalishi

    Greenalishi Birds Aren’t Real

    Location:
    San Francisco
    A lot of 80s rockers went country. Metal bands and Hootie too. It fits that click track perfection. The production and cliche filled Montovani music of modern Nashville. Its the modern recreation of Sussudio and Chicago in the 80s. Too perfect for me.
     
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  25. I'm still trying figure out how this is less sophisticated than Flatt & Scruggs. :nyah:



    Bill Monroe [1954]
     
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