Stranger than Fiction, Larger Than Life: the Finn Brothers song-by-song discussion thread

Our votes for "The Great Leveller":

1-1
2-2
3-4
4-0
5-0
Average: 2.2714

 

Today's song is "Astrud", written by Tim Finn (alone) and performed by Phil Manzanera featuring...?? @StefanWq , can you help us? Who is singing this?
Edit: Ah, never mind I found the answer: Ana Maria Velez



This song was included on some versions of Southern Cross, but not others -- I have only discovered it within the last two weeks while doing research for this thread, though I've been familiar with Southern Cross for nearly twenty years.

I assume the Astrud in the title is of course Astrud_Gilberto.

The lyric:
We were slow dancing To the voice of Astrud
That's when you undid My secret heart

We were together For a quiet moment
I knew that I wanted You in my life

Are we taking a risk
Do we face an abyss
When you kiss me
I melt in your arms
Is it safer to say
We got carried away
By ASTRUD

I was down hearted Didn't know my potential
The music started My old self died

Are we taking a risk
Do we face an abyss
Is the mystery of love around
Is it safer to say
We got carried away
By ASTRUD

Are we taking a risk
Do we face an abyss
When you whisper my name in the dark
Is it safer to say
We got carried away
By ASTRUD

 

First I'm a sucker for bossanova and Latin jazz in general.

And I think this song is actually one of my favorite Tim Finn songs, though, much like some of the 1987 film songs, it really stands out as different to the rest of the work.

It's easy to see this as just a genre exercise, but the fact is, it succeeds at what it is because I think that Tim really feels this music: it's lovely, the lyric is classic-sounding; even the rhymes seem culled from some imaginary retro-land when men were men and wore suits and women were women and wore sexy dresses, they all danced the tango and everyone died of lung cancer.

It's romantic and even the sax solo, slinky against the bossanova beat, sounds sexy to me rather than grating like so many sax solos from the late eighties. This music makes me want to drink cocktails and dance and I loathe dancing.

5/5

 

I think "Astrud" is an incredible track, superbly sung by Ana Maria Velez. It's a very cinematic song, it sounds like it could be set in a sophisticated club in Havana. I can picture the two persons slow dancing together to the music of Astrud Gilberto and what that would be like. This song made me curious to hear Astrud Gilberto's music and from what I've heard she's an incredible singer.
The lyrics also portray how powerful music can be for persons in all kinds of life situations. The two persons in the song (the narrator and the you person) seem almost overwhelmed by their strong feelings for each other and it's almost as if they are unable to admit falling in love and need to rationalise it - "Is it safer to say we got carried away by Astrud?". As a trainspotter I also note the lyrics include the phrase "my secret heart" and Tim would later write a song called "Secret Heart" (released as a bonus track on the "Persuasion" single).
The tenor sax solo is really beautiful and adds to the romantic and sensual feel of the song. I think it serves the song well that the other musicians play with restraint, stay in the background. It's a bit ironic that if this song - written solely by Tim, with lead vocals by Ana Maria Velez and great saxophone playing by Phil Todd - was played on the radio, they would probably just say "And this was 'Astrud' by Phil Manzanera".
A truly wonderful song.
4,8/5.

 

"Astrud" is a lovely song, albeit miles away from the sort of music that Tim Finn is known for. For that matter, it's not exactly the sort of music that Phil Manzanera is known for either. I must say that this album is an odd beast. For a record bearing Manzanera's name, some of these songs are primarily the work of other musicians and artists. I agree that the sax solo is sublime. Really nice bit of music here.

4.0/5

 

You're almost making me want to listen to this stuff

 

A real cheesefest with a very dated and cheap production sound.

A low 2/5.

 

This is a bit better, I suppose—certainly the vocalist is an improvement. And credit to Tim for writing plausibly in an unfamiliar genre. That said, the genre (however appropriate to Manzanera’s upbringing and heritage) isn’t one I particularly like, and the song still feels very by-the-numbers.

2/5

 

I like this better than the previous two, for sure, but it still has a bit of dating around the edges. It's an interesting one in that the other two felt like Tim tunes, whatever issues I had with the execution, but this one doesn't - it's quite a departure. I don't mind it, but I don't see myself seeking it out either.

3/5

 

I think this is a decent song, but I don't like it as much as some others above. It's certainly sung well, and I like aspects of it. I suppose it is better than the two songs so far, but not by much. I think this album suffers from being something that I bought as a fan of both Manzanera and Tim, and someone who really likes their previous collaborations on K-Scope. It was very disappointing, and I think I only played it once. I may have even disengaged a bit during the first playing.

This song is far too 'normal' for me in terms of production. The basic songwriting itself seems fine, and I could accept a song like this as a bit of 'something different' on an album. I think I'd prefer it if it were sung by Iggy Pop because his vocal limitations and style would make it more distinctive.

There are some nice musical touches both rhythm and chords that I like. If this were produced as a Split Enz track, then it might have turned out like I Hope I Never, which is a song that a lot of people love but for me one of my least favourite Split Enz tracks. I think that Tim has written some much better ballads.

I think it's cool that Tim has written a jazzy South American track. But, I'm not as much of a fan of Bossa nova etc. as others, so while I appreciate the skill involved, it doesn't make me want to listen to it a lot more.

2.9/5

 

Our votes for "Astrud"

1-0
2-2
3-2
4-1
5-2
Average: 3.3857

 

Today's song is "Rich and Poor", written by Phil Manzanera and Tim Finn, lead vocals by Tim Finn.


On the original album, this song is preceded by "Guantanamera". On the more common version which I have, Guantanamera is cut, but plays briefly and quietly in the introduction.

 

This isn't *bad* I guess? But it's not good either. It's in the "sonic sleeping pill" category to me, but not unlistenable as a novelty.

I take it back - the discoiness of the chorus is upsetting my delicate sensibilities. Novelty alone doesn't save it.

2/5

 

Yes, liking dance or "disco" is probably crucial to liking this song or not. A few others to come, too.

Having this song follow "Guantanamera" makes sense and underscores a little Marxist theme that I think that Manzanera was going for in this album, (because, South America, remember?) though I think that Tim's lyrics kind of keep things from going too overtly in that direction. Why was "Guantanamera" cut in later editions? (I have literally never heard the Manzanera version.)

This song seems to be narrated by a homeless person and simply meant to remind us that there are a lot of haves and have-nots in the world. Rather than being an angry song about oppression, or a maudlin "Another Day in Paradise" type song I see it more as an advertisement for the grand party that will ensue once "we break the unbreakable law dividing the rich and the poor".

There's something about Tim's voice that just conveys rather complex melodies better than many singers', and this song is largely elevated by his presence as opposed to Gary Dyson's, who will make a final appearance on the last song on the album. The melody here, like many Tim melodies is actually extraordinarily difficult to sing and sound good; you hear the strain when Dyson does this stuff, as if it's all he can do to stay in tune; Tim makes it sound effortless.

There's a very nice melody here and I like the whole party atmosphere of the track. I feel that Tim's articulate lyric doesn't quite capture much meaningful though.

It's hard for me to think of this as a Phil Manzanera track: it just sounds so much like a Tim Finn track, especially when he sings. Again, it sounds like a missing link between Big Canoe and Tim Finn. There's the R&B element back in full stride, but the sound is just slightly more organic and less abrasive than Big Canoe and the melodies remind me more of what Tim was writing on Tim Finn.

I did what Stepan did and just made a mini-album of this album (which in any form is way too long) using just the Tim Finn tracks. It's still a 45 minute album, and I find it actually more listenable than Big Canoe -- at least I'm not constantly distracted by the effects. But there's a sort of "eighties adult rock" vibe about the whole thing that I've never been fond of: and it's not only Tim Finn or Phil Manzanera who fell into this sound; it was a big thing for many artists who are far, far more successful than they were.

Anyway, back to the song: 3.4/5. I like it, but it falls short of being great to me. My main problem in the end, is with Tim's lyric, which I think does not adequately capture whatever Manzanera was going for. The music is fine.

 

It's great to hear Tim singing clear as a bell on this - as we all know what happens in the future. One reason why I didn't get into Say it is So for a while is the shock at what had happened to his voice.

This is 'well produced' on some objective scale, I'm sure. But, the song, the lyrics, and the overall production doesn't do it for me. Somehow this sounds like people doing a job, rather than the musicians being inspired by what they are doing and achieving artistic heights.

It's product. If it were on Escapade it would be the worst song on it. Tim and Phil can both do much better. At least Tim sings well.

2.6/5

 

Interesting you say it's well produced; I would say it's the very ordinary and unimaginative production that lets the song down. It's just too tasteful for me I guess. No truly wild element.But I'm not sure how much Tim felt it, either. His melody is inspired, but I think his lyric is rather ordinary.

The percussion is nice, but the drum machine sucks energy out of the song, in my opinion. Though, again, the drum programming on this album (most of it done by Phil Manzanera himself) is remarkably good, it almost sounds real.

Drum machines are weird thing: I don't mind them sometimes, especially on dancey disco tracks (like the upcoming "Dr. Fidel"). I was listening to Bjork last night, and it's drum machine central. Sounds great.

I actually didn't mind them on some of the songs on Conflicting Emotions, as they fit that cold oppressive vibe.

They don't bother me in Prince songs, in fact, I think they sometimes they are part of the composition and real drums woulnd't sound right.

But they bother me in music that is purporting to be "rock."

 

I think there is an awkward mix between the lyrics and the production. The message is very worthy and combined with the dated brass sound it comes across as preachy and cheesy rather than heartfelt.

2.5/5.

 

I mean 'well produced' in that everything works towards the aim of the production, which seems to be generic 'product'. I don't like what they were trying to do, which appears to me to be generic Mike and the Mechanics style pop. So, I appreciate the skill involved, but not what they were aiming at. They should have been aiming far higher. As both of them often did in both the past and the future.

 

I agree. (Though I'm the type who likes almost anything, even Mike+the Mechanics. It's just that I'm not terribly fond of it.)

Funny thing is, I think they genuinely thought that they were doing something new according to the few quotes or interviews I've found about it: the Latin percussion and mariachi (or whatever) horns, wedded to the, as you so aptly have put it, "Mike+the Mechanics production"...

From reading some of the interviews, Manzanera thought he (and Tim) had somehow invented a new genre...Finn seemed really excited and inspired by his trip to Cuba; talked about the "beautiful music Phil had come up with".

It's possible that musicians who have spent most of their adult lives recording and making music hear music differently than we do. And also it's a fact that this kind of thing sounded better in its time as it was by far the norm. The exotica elements might have seemed far more daring then than they do now.

But, yeah, unless you really examine the details, it does all just sound like Mike+the Mechanics with trumpets and congas. Or really watered down Peter Gabriel.

Maybe a more imaginative mix would have improved it.

 

It would be interesting to read what Phil and Tim said at the time. I found this comment by Manzanera in hindsight.

Phil Manzanera: Dance away the heartache

I looked for some contemporary interviews with Manzanera, but couldn't find any.

 

@HitAndRun , check out these quotes Stefan put up earlier.

It's interesting that he said "he hasn't finished it yet." I suppose he got so caught up in the promotion of Tim Finn that he couldn't finish it and Phil had to hire Gary Dyson to round out the album. Who knows, maybe if Tim had finished it it would be less of the slight hodge-podge it is. But the production would have remained the same, at any rate, I'm sure.


There's also a post about this over on Frenz.com: Tim's credits in Manzanera's Southern Cross

From that there's a quote from the "Million Reasons Why" CD single: Tim helped me [sc. Manzanera] gather my lyrical thoughts, and together... we came up with, what we thought was a new musical genre, ’Southern Cross’!”

I'd be interested in reading more from Manzanera from 1990, see what he thought about the music then.

 

What's funny about the Frenz.com thread is they lack the information Stefan has written here, where Tim flat-out states that he wrote the melodies and lyrics....so they spend the whole thread trying to make a case for Tim Finn-as-melodist: "hmmm...it sounds like Tim Finn melodies, is it possible that he did more than lyrics?"
It's a pity Stefan wasn't around to simply point to the Rolling Stone interview.

 

I think "Rich and Poor" works better in its context and its place on the album (between "Guantanamera" and "Dance (Break This Trance)") rather than as a stand-alone track. I always think of this album as cinematic, set in Havana during times of oppression and political upheaval. "Guantanamera" is a high energy track, I can picture the "beautiful people" in this sophisticated club, dancing and having fun and drinking exotic drinks. Meanwhile, in "Rich and Poor", the homeless narrator is standing outside, wanting to be a part of that crowd, enjoying a more carefree existance. Perhaps he is homeless because he has fallen out of favour politically. I hear the chorus as a kind of wish or fantasy, that moment when he too is welcomed in but still feeling a bit awkward and hesitant. I think it actually fits the song that the horns sound a bit stiff and forced, lacking that natural swing and looseness. Maybe it is just because the musicians lacked natural swing, but my interpretation makes me like the song more so I'll go with that. Tim's singing is top notch throughout the song too.
4/5

 

I like "Rich and Poor" better than the first three from this project. It's great to hear Tim singing. The verses are pretty good, and if the chord changes toward the end of the verses walk the fine line between interesting and annoying, for me they stay just on the former side of the line. The chorus, though, is too glossy and facile.

The production across all of these songs has bothered me. It's not simply that it's '80s-style production. I was listening to a lot of different music from the mid-'80s into the early '90s, so it's a style I know and a style I can contextualize. It's definitely present, for example, on a track like "Never Be the Same," but it doesn't bother me there. The style bothers me here. HitAndRun described it perfectly,, I think: the production makes the songs feel like "product" rather than music.

3/5 for "Rich and Poor."

 

"Rich and Poor" is an interesting track. Tim sings it quite well and I like the instrumentation and production on this one far more than I do on the first two cuts we've discussed from this album (it's hard to compare it to "Astrud" as that one is so different in style). I find the lyrics a bit clumsy and the melody doesn't really capture my attention. Again, I probably prefer the verses more than the chorus - the horns don't work for me and give the song a sort of bad-Phil Collins vibe. The sax solo is also quite cheesy. I don't really hear any dance or disco rhythms here; it all seems like straight ahead pop-rock to me.

3.1/5