Black Sabbath - tape flaws or drop-outs on "Evil Woman" - where exactly do they occur?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by blacksabbathrainbow, Oct 15, 2019.

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  1. rnranimal

    rnranimal Senior Member

    Location:
    Ohio
    I'm not too surprised about the results. This track is different sounding than the rest of the tracks so makes sense you might like one release for the rest of the album and a different one for this track. I do recall liking the '89/'91 a lot for this track but also recalled liking the SACD. However, this is one of my least favorite tracks from the early albums. I almost never listen to it. If I listen to the album, it has Wicked World and if this song comes up on shuffle, I skip it. So I haven't given it as much attention as you have in comparing. I may at some point but don't know that I'll have the motivation. I wouldn't be surprised to find my blind tests turn out very similar to yours. One issue for me, though, is that I'm quite good at identifying the different masterings right off so I think it affects my choices sometimes when I know which one it is.

    I'd be interested to see what your result would be with just an '89 vs '91 would be. The last shootout indicates the '91 would win but I wonder if not having the others in the mix would affect it.

    I have heard multiple high quality needle drops of the 1st UK pressing and I don't like the way any of them sounded. For any of the tracks. I don't understand the praise it gets. I realize it is just based on needle drops but they were done on high quality equipment along side other albums I think sounded great. I honestly prefer the sound of the US LP over the UK and not just because it has Wicked World. Though that helps.
     
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  2. You're talking about the entire album now, or specifically about Evil Woman?
     
  3. InStepWithTheStars

    InStepWithTheStars It's a miracle, let it alter you

    Location:
    North Carolina
    Sorry - just the "Evil Woman" track on the bonus disc. I found it to be brighter (which could just be the mastering) and occasionally "fuzzier", more distorted, more worn than the album on the first CD. It could be that they added high-end EQ to mask the "dullness" of the tape - I don't know. I just found that it sticks out a lot more than the other tracks. That's the only mastering of the song I've heard, so it may or may not have always sounded that way.
     
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  4. On the other hand, it looks you have given it much more attention than anyone else I know. I mean, without you pointing them out to me, I would possibly never have considered checking out the 1989 and 1991 Japan versions in the first place, given that I don't think I have ever seen them being mentioned, let alone recommended, by anyone here. It was only after you tested pretty much every Evil Woman release in existence and told me you liked the 1989 and 1991 version that those got my attention.

    While I am definitely not as good as you at identifying the different masterings by ear, I do know enough about some of them to sometimes encounter that problem too. Thus, whenever I shootout any of the 2012 masterings, I have in mind they sound very bright, so when I notice that one of the samples in my shootout sounds very bright I suspect it will likely be the 2012 remaster. Same goes for the 33PD and the 1986 Castle CDs when I notice that a sample sounds very dark. And once I have seen the results of one of my shootouts and then do another round, the likeliness of recognizing the masterings does of course massively increase. The only thing I can do about it is regularly remind myself that I am not married to any mastering or release. My priority is to find the copy of this song that I like best, no matter when, where and by whom it was mastered. So even if I recognize e.g. one version because it sounds bright and the other one because it sounds dark, the important question to ask myself is: which way does this song sound better to me? (But yes, in such cases of course it isn't a proper blind test anymore.)

    You'll be the first to know. :) In my first shootout, the 1989 was the clear winner, so I guess everything's possible. Also, it's not just important that I like the sound as such - it also has to fit in, at least halfway, with the sound of the rest of the album, that is to say: the SACD. It is quite the project, especially given that the song isn't my favorite either. Anyway, I love this album, and I want it to be complete, so... ;-)

    When I listened to needledrops of both the UK and US LP without comparing them to any digital releases, I actually liked both, which is why I was surprised that this time it did so poorly. I don't remember - did you ever check out DBP's LP-rips of this album that I sent you?

    Thanks. Well, actually the 2012 mastering of the song that you have is rather atypical - it definitely hasn't always sounded that way, in that the 2012 mastering is much brighter-sounding than most other copies, including all the other masterings in my shootout. (Anyway, I didn't test all of them, e.g. I left out the 1996 Castle remaster and the Black Box.) "Worn" and "fuzzy", on the other hand, is indeed typical for this song's sound, especially since the mid-1990ies or so.
     
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  5. rnranimal

    rnranimal Senior Member

    Location:
    Ohio
    Yeah, I forgot I did spend quite a bit of time analyzing and comparing various masterings tracing the tape issue appearances but have lacked a proper shootout. Really, though, I know it would only be down to the '89/'91 Japanese, 2009 and SACD for me. So I'd be interested to find which of those I like best.


    Oh yes, I missed that the 1st shootout included both. Interesting. But maybe not surprising. When I did compare the two, I was going back and forth as to which I thought sounded better. Being so close, I think which one we like best is down to our ears/mood at that moment. So I can see where one would reliably do better in one shootout and the other do reliably better at another time.


    I don't recall listening to a full DBP rip. Just among the various WW samples.
     
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  6. Just did another shootout, this time with headphones - Japan 32PD vs Japan TECP vs SACD vs 2009 Pearce Sanctuary:

    Completed shootouts: 31

    Individual test results from among 4 possible files:

    "A" chosen: 13 times (41.94%) (file: D:\Uploads for Filehosting\Samples OK\Evil Woman (1970 Black Sabbath_1989 Japan_23PD-133_Vertigo) - TRACK GAIN APPLIED.wav)
    "B" chosen: 3 times (9.68%) (file: D:\Uploads for Filehosting\Samples OK\Evil Woman (1970 Black Sabbath_2009 Germany_2CD_2700817_Sanctuary) - TRACK GAIN APPLIED.wav)
    "C" chosen: 7 times (22.58%) (file: D:\Uploads for Filehosting\Samples OK\Evil Woman (1970 Black Sabbath_2012 Japan_SHM-SACD_UIGY-9094_DSD64 ISO2DFF to 16-44.1) - TRACK GAIN APPLIED.wav)
    "D" chosen: 8 times (25.81%) (file: D:\Uploads for Filehosting\Samples OK\Evil Woman (1970 Black Sabbath_1991 Japan_TECP-23892_Teichiku) - TRACK GAIN APPLIED.wav)


    So this time the 23PD is the winner again, with the TECP and the SACD in the middle and the Pearce Sanctuary left behind. I am a bit puzzled by the now very bad performance of the Sanctuary compared to the earlier test above, but of course it is possible that my AKG headphones present these masterings rather differently from my Mission speakers. Anyway, I guess I will be going with the 23PD for this song. This time I did notice what sounds to be tape problems at certain spots of 2 of the 4 tested versions, e.g. at min 2:14 (at the word "Evil", particularly notable when listening to the cymbals). Something's not quite right there, though the problem is much more subtle than the drop-outs in Iron Man. A quick check after finishing the shootout reveals that at least the specific problem (whatever it is properly called - 'drop-out' sounds a bit too strong to me in this case) at 2:14 is audible on both the SACD and the 2009 Sanctuary, but not on the 23PD and the TECP. The nevertheless relatively good test results of the SACD in this round seems to indicate that the overall sound of the SACD version of Evil Woman is still pretty good; on the other hand, compare shootout round #3 in my longer post above where the SACD lost against both the 2009 Sanctuary and the Ten Year War versions. Again, the inconsistency might be due to the different setups (headphones vs speakers) used. It doesn't matter really, the 23PD made it.
     
  7. ...so I thought: why not shootout Wicked World as well,while I am at it? Again, with headphones:

    Completed shootouts: 22

    Individual test results from among 4 possible files:

    "A" chosen: 6 times (27.27%) (file: D:\Uploads for Filehosting\Samples OK\Wicked World (1970 Black Sabbath_2014 HDtracks_Warner-Rhino_downsampled+dithered to 16-44.1) - TRACK GAIN APPLIED.wav)
    "B" chosen: 5 times (22.73%) (file: D:\Uploads for Filehosting\Samples OK\Wicked World (2016 The Ultimate Collection_2017 USA_2CD_R2 558485_Warner-Rhino) - TRACK GAIN APPLIED.wav)
    "C" chosen: 7 times (31.82%) (file: D:\Uploads for Filehosting\Samples OK\Wicked World (1970 Black Sabbath_1988 USA_1871-2_Warner) - TRACK GAIN APPLIED.wav)
    "D" chosen: 4 times (18.18%) (file: D:\Uploads for Filehosting\Samples OK\Wicked World (1970 Black Sabbath_2016 USA_2CD_R2 552928_Warner-Rhino) - TRACK GAIN APPLIED.wav)


    Now this is very inconclusive. Maybe I need to use my speakers, rather than headphones, to properly shoot out WW. Another time, I guess.
     
  8. OK, 2nd round of WW shootouts, this time with speakers:

    Completed shootouts: 14

    Individual test results from among 4 possible files:

    "A" chosen: 4 times (28.57%) (file: D:\Uploads for Filehosting\Samples OK\Wicked World (2016 The Ultimate Collection_2017 USA_2CD_R2 558485_Warner-Rhino) - TRACK GAIN APPLIED.wav)
    "B" chosen: 0 times (0.00%) (file: D:\Uploads for Filehosting\Samples OK\Wicked World (1970 Black Sabbath_1988 USA_1871-2_Warner) - TRACK GAIN APPLIED.wav)
    "C" chosen: 6 times (42.86%) (file: D:\Uploads for Filehosting\Samples OK\Wicked World (1970 Black Sabbath_2016 USA_2CD_R2 552928_Warner-Rhino) - TRACK GAIN APPLIED.wav)
    "D" chosen: 4 times (28.57%) (file: D:\Uploads for Filehosting\Samples OK\Wicked World (1970 Black Sabbath_2014 HDtracks_Warner-Rhino_downsampled+dithered to 16-44.1) - TRACK GAIN APPLIED.wav)


    Interestingly, the original WB version that sounded best on headphones sounds worse than all three other versions on speakers. The 2016 CD version, in contrast, got the worst results with headphones but the best results with speakers. I am afraid this song will keep me busy a bit longer.

    See also my earlier tests:
    Roland's favorite CD versions of Black Sabbath albums (part2)
    Roland's favorite CD versions of Black Sabbath albums (part2)
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2019
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