The Beatles' "Rubber Soul" - Putting together the proper tracklist

Ah, well, you know at least we have Spain to thank for Strawberry Fields Forever.

 

You're not making any sense. First you say that in 1965 the US market had this folk thing going on that the UK market did not, hence the brilliance of Dexter's US Rubber Soul. Now you're saying that the UK had this folk thing going on in 1965 too.

I remember you also saying that the Dexter decision was due to The Beatles having to keep up with Simon & Garfunkel releases amongst others. Well, Paul Simon was in England in 1965. There were no Simon And Garfunkel album releases, just a single toward the end of the year. Simon released the UK only Paul Simon Songbook album that as far I can tell didn't chart at all. The songs on it were later re-recorded by Simon And Garfunkel and released in 1966.

The Beatles had strong UK competition from The Stones, The Who, Yardbirds, Pretty Things, Kinks, The Animals and others throughout 1965. And that's not even counting the Merseybeat bands.

 

It is not "fiction" to say that the British sucked at making British music work in America and that the man who did make that happen also made a few of the Parlophone albums significantly better.

It is not "fiction" to say that the Beatles were toiling away playing two-a-day's in a French movie theater, recording novelty tracks in German, and unsure what their futures held when they broke in America and the man who made that happen also was capable of other feats in a market he knew intimately.

You don't have to agree with me. But it is fact. Dave Dexter Jr. is responsible for US Beatlemania. Dave Dexter Jr. is responsible for the all-important US pivot the Beatles made heading into 1966. Dave Dexter Jr. created three alternative Beatles albums that are absolute canon in America. Dave Dexter Jr. should be admired for his critical role in the Beatles success.

 

I do not agree with you. Rather than winding up us Brits, you are just making yourself look stupid.

 

The advent of freeform radio in the US coincided with the mid period fabs LPs. The mission was to play deep cuts, non hits, folkie tracks, psych, some jazz etc. The US RS was like the rosetta stone for this. San Francisco, Boston, LA, NY...

At some point the fabs realized that they were in this LP game, and not the singles game, but they didn't know it yet when they programmed the UK RS. The success of the US RS gave them a clue about the future. Albums were the art form, but only after US RS became the first art rock LP by the combination of accident, some good A and R, and the advent of US freeform radio.

US freeform radio... not UK, or Spain, both of which places I love. The US RS played a pivotal and well beloved role in this.

 

Tell me, what would have happened to the Beatles if they never made it in America? Came to the US, did the Sullivan show, flopped, went back to England with their tails between their legs. What happens? Another month playing a movie theater twice-a-day in Paris? More novelty records sung in foreign languages?

A Hard Day's Night never gets made, that was an American venture, say goodbye to one of their best albums. They never tour America and learn more about the culture, there is no Shea Stadium gig, no Help movie, no Yellow Submarine cartoon. A huge swath of great '65-'66 songs never get written. The luxury of international fame never blesses them, they have no creative license to expand beyond Bug Music, there is no Rubber Soul, there is no Pepper, there is no White Album, there is no Abbey Road.

Sarcastic barbs? Talk of 'butchering'? There should be a statue of Dave Dexter Jr. in Liverpool. Brits should be naming their children after him. The world owes the man a huge debt. May God bless him.

 

Let me see if I can track down the copy Brian Wilson had. That should solve this whole crisis. Not.

What if he didn't just listen to it once but heard it all over town on everyone else's stereo too? Then which one would he be talking about?

I must make the point here that if he heard the UKV but most of his pals had a different one, it would have been something he would remember. But when asked it seems he said he "heard about" the other versions. It doesn't sound like he had two versions of it in his life. He was another huge fan of the US RS.

Anne Murray, who covered and hit with one of the RS songs, is another North American who has spoken of her love for it while in college.

 

Dexter turned them down, leaving the Beatles to powerhouse US labels like Vee Jay, Swan and Tollie. Capitol eventually signed them only as a result of pressure from its British parent, EMI. So....

 

Wasn't Brian's point of why he was struck by Rubber Soul because it was an album with all good tracks? Pretty sure he didn't single out the opening song, much less the superhuman insight of Dave Dexter, Jr. or its overall theme.

 

AFAIK Yes to the first. I don't follow you on the second.

 

I will say it slowly.
It doesn't matter what version he heard. He was wowed by the Beatles' recordings.

 

We already knew that he heard one of them,( duh.)

He heard the US version, a lot, and it was musical history, as we all know. My point is it isn't about some single piece of vinyl. Brian heard it in many many places, in the USA. Not off topic, I think you'll grant.

 

"The A&R Man in the High Castle"

 

I think it's not that hard to understand: Rubber Soul (both versions) has folk influences (among others, as I always point out), but it's not a folk album, which it's the myth some Capitol fans hang on to defend its supposed superiority. See the difference? Multiple influences (including folk) vs a one-style album.

Well, Brian has stated different things in different moments. In any case, as someone said, he was impressed by the quality of the album (10 songs out of 12 came from the original album). To anyone with common sense, the inspiration for Brian came from the Beatles' leap forward in quality and sophistication.

 

Dave Dexter Jr. is the fifth Beatle,obviously.

 

Dave Dexter Jr was the fifth Beatle, obviously.

 

I think it's very sad this topic has been transformed by some into a kind of national-pride question (some people here diminish George Martin and even The Beatles themselves to defend Capitol and Dexter), and has ended up in borderline xenophobe-tinged attacks on British and Europeans in general. This goes against the spirit of what The Beatles music means. Let's go back to discuss just music, please. This is not a question of nationality.

 

And there should be a sign on the statue saying : " This Is The Fifth Beatle "

 

Even I can see the innuendo in this comment. Why don't YOU stick to the topic? I don't side with either of the two teams, (being a lover of the UK album A Hard Day's Night and all that), but clearly the anti Dexter side wins the hostility competition.

 

Well, in my case, as an American who discovered the UK version in 1974, I remember feeling that Americans were sorely short-changed with the US version. The UK has been my go-to ever since. Not that Day Tripper / We Can Work It Out wouldn't have been great on that album, if we want to get into historical revisionism. I've played around with that, as well as with including It's Only Love and I've Just Seen A Face in there, and while they do work as the US version shows, it's just not right IMO when it's all said and done. The albums were what they were.

Having said that, the one thing I miss from the US version is the false start on I'm Looking Through You. Kinda liked that.

 

So, you overlook a few pages' worth of personal attacks based on other users' nationalities, but a petition to go back to focus on the music is an "innuendo"? Ok...

 

You're implying nasty things against Schnitzer, in fact trying to incriminate him:

"and has ended up in borderline xenophobe-tinged attacks on British and Europeans in general"

What you really wish is for the mods to get in and restrain his voice. I really despise that kind of behaviour. I'm a european and I don't feel that I'm being attacked. But again: I'm not among the ones that have been personally attacking him right from his first couple of very "on topic" statements.

I'm sort of okay with that kind of fight, but don't call for the thought police to help you out, that's too bad.

 

Contemporary and forward-looking, if we think of the folk-ish influences being indicative of a singer-songwriter approach to writing, and not merely having to do with acoustic guitars.

There's no substitute for that. That, and the Capitol Stereo 'The Word' with its extra vocals and cohesive mix.

 

Perhaps I have gone too far in my attempts to rebut my friend's attempts to glorify Mr. Dexter and company as the creative lynchpins of the Beatles' success. While I strongly disagree with that assessment, Capitol acted no better or worse than any large corporation seeking to maximixe its profits. I personally departed from that train when I discovered how much more my dollar would get me from England, freed of those corporate decisions. But, to the extent that I have responded here in a less than temperate manner, I sincerely appreciate your pointing it out and will dial it back.

 

At 43 pages in, have you come up with a sequence that you like yet?