The Beatles' "Rubber Soul" - Putting together the proper tracklist

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by yesstiles, Dec 23, 2017.

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  1. DRM

    DRM Forum Resident

    You’re just being silly now. Silly folk music might be a genre to consider.
     
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  2. DRM

    DRM Forum Resident

    The Carpenters are calling.
     
  3. schnitzerphilip

    schnitzerphilip "Modern Dad" Unlocked Award

    Location:
    NJ USA
    1. What the Beatles achieved in the UK in 1962 and 1963 BOMBED in the United States.

    2. What Dave Dexter Jr. achieved in 1964 was a massive SUCCESS in the United States on a scale never seen before or since.

    This cannot be disputed. Much of what we talk about here is hypothetical, but not this point. These are facts.
     
  4. notesfrom

    notesfrom Forum Resident

    Location:
    NC USA
    It's only the most popular acoustic folk ballad this side of 'Greensleeves'.

    Do they have any acoustic folk ballads?
     
  5. dsdu

    dsdu less serious minor pest

    Location:
    Santa Cruz, CA
    You'd think that people would have had enough of silly folk songs
    But I look around me
    And I see it isn't so
    Some people want to fill the world
    With silly folk songs
    And what's wrong with that?
    I'd like to know
    Cos here I go again

    I folk you, I folk you
    I folk you, I folk you
     
  6. Bill

    Bill Senior Member

    Location:
    Eastern Shore
    Classic Schnitz.
    1. In mid-1963, Capitol did not hold any album rights to scoop. Dexter had passed. Remember?
    2. The implication that filming of AHDN was delayed until March to first see how the Sullivan show appearance went is nonsense. It was delayed because THE BEATLES WERE IN THE US, making filming in London a bit difficult. Leading to ...
    3. Had the Beatles bombed on Sullivan or in the US charts, UA would have killed the film. Unadulterated speculation by the Schnitz, coincidentally to lead to his big conclusion that all things were possible by virtue of Dexter's marketing genius. Ain't necessarily so.
    Each of Schnitz's bulletins is filled with misinformation. I am weary.
    You are all on you own.
    Peace.
     
  7. Hermes

    Hermes Past Master

    Location:
    Denmark
    Thank you guys for the answers. I may have overreacted a bit. Without some moderate nastiness this thread wouldn't be so entertaining :)

    I'm putting my money on Schnitzer, but it's close :D
     
  8. thrivingonariff

    thrivingonariff Forum Resident

    Location:
    US
    Right, but you do realize that the ultimate goal here is to establish that the Beatles would have gone nowhere (e.g., Ringo would have opened his hair salon) if they'd not found success in America, leading inevitably to the notion that Americans can claim pride of ownership in the Beatles and everything wonderful that followed from them? End of story.
     
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  9. TheWalrusWasPaul

    TheWalrusWasPaul Forum Resident

    Location:
    Seattle
    45 page thread where question was unequivocally settled on post # 5.

    Classic.
     
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  10. Bill

    Bill Senior Member

    Location:
    Eastern Shore
    Of course. And when you point out certain factual or logical errors, Schnitz ignores the point or changes the subject.
    Check, please.
     
    goodiesguy, BeatleJWOL, dsdu and 2 others like this.
  11. Anthology123

    Anthology123 Senior Member

    I posted this before, it was a radio show called Pop Chronicles made a hybrid of US/UK Rubber Soul:

    side one
    I've Just Seen A Face
    Drive My Car
    Norwegian Wood
    You Won't See Me
    Think For Yourself
    The Word
    Michelle
    What Goes On

    side two
    Nowhere Man
    It's Only Love
    Girl
    I'm looking Through You
    In My Life
    Wait
    Run For Your Life
    If I Needed Someone

    It's not a bad listing, I did like Nowhere Man starting off side two, plus I like the fact that both sides have songs with cold
    endings, and not fadeouts.
     
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  12. Wildest cat from montana

    Wildest cat from montana Humble Reader

    Location:
    ontario canada
    You sound just like Lee J Cobb in ' Twelve Angry Men '
    He had the facts too.
     
  13. mbleicher1

    mbleicher1 Tube Amp Curmudgeon

    Location:
    Washington, D.C.
    If Capitol had stuck I Should Have Known Better on there, another song with acoustic guitars on it that they hadn't used yet on an LP, you'd get people blathering about how much better that was than "Drive My Car."
     
  14. schnitzerphilip

    schnitzerphilip "Modern Dad" Unlocked Award

    Location:
    NJ USA
    Those are British bands. All playing a somewhat narrow version of pop/rock. In the USA you had a ton of different genres including Motown, Protest, Folk, Beatnik, Surf, Blues, Teen Idol, and on and on. The US charts were far more diverse. Bigger country. "Melting pot" of people leading to a melting pot of styles. Understand? Or am I being unclear?

    The core conversation is about an album as a "nice collection of songs" vs. "an epic concept around a central theme". Beatles For Sale is a nice album. It's not what the US version of Rubber Soul is. Martin & Epstein had a formula of MacLen songs, George song, Ringo song, dance song, and they played that out over and over again, Beatles For Sale, Help, UK Rubber Soul are essentially the same album just with different interchangeable parts. Dexter merely shuffled that ocean of sameness a different way.

    Inroads? Went from Vee Jay to Swan to Tollie (who?) records. There was zero traction in the US despite incredible success in England. Yes, Dexter passed on the Beatles in '63. As I said before, the American music market wasn't some British one-trick-pony in 1963, there were a dozen different genres exploding and Capitol simply didn't need another new band, Dexter didn't need to focus on some long haired group from a country whose musical output never made a dent in his country when the Beach Boys were on fire. Surf was the gimmick trend of '63. Didn't need Bug Music. So I'm not too sure it was a mistake to pass on the Beatles in '63. Unfortunate events made their '64 splash far more epic than it would have been the year before.

    Like a few others in this thread, you are way too deep in the details and need to instead focus on the big picture. Genres, definitions, arguments over what is/isn't "Folk" isn't the point. The British music business was a dog in the USA for decades, actually forever, so to say that the Beatles just showed up and Dexter had no impact on their stunning explosion in a country that ignored them the year before is laughable. Dexter might have been late to the party, but once he focused on it, wham, lights out.

    I tend to not answer the posts of people who focus on finding logic traps or spelling errors. If you're done with defining "Folk" I'm here, speak away and I shall answer.
     
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  15. Bill

    Bill Senior Member

    Location:
    Eastern Shore
    Thanks for your offer, Schnitz. How old were you in 1965?
     
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  16. simond9x

    simond9x Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    About 18 months and still is. His knowledge of the UK music scene in the 60s is beyond laughable. Maybe his older sister forget to tell him about it?
     
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  17. schnitzerphilip

    schnitzerphilip "Modern Dad" Unlocked Award

    Location:
    NJ USA
    Do you know a thing about business? Are you a musician, or a teacher perhaps?

    United Artists was not interested in producing a teen exploitation film of a strange cross-dressing band for a tiny market like the UK. They were interested in rolling the dice that Capitol Records missed the boat and give themselves a chance at a longshot home run of a soundtrack album if the band took off in America. They didn't want to make a movie. They wanted the rights to a soundtrack album.

    Had the Beatles bombed on Sullivan in Feburary and/or their Capitol push bombed in January and it was certain that a soundtrack album was going to be a dud, United Artists would have just killed the Hard Days Night project. They'd probably spent $30,000 on a script and nothing else at the time the last note of the Sullivan show was struck, no way they would have spent another $470,000 and worked for 7 weeks on a film and soundtrack no one was going to buy.
     
  18. schnitzerphilip

    schnitzerphilip "Modern Dad" Unlocked Award

    Location:
    NJ USA
    It's an interesting thing to consider. Remember, the Beatles had 2 years of success in the UK and not much elsewhere, they were holed up playing gigs twice-a-day at a movie theater in France as 1964 was beginning, no one could say for certain that they were going to be anything more than a trendy gimmick band at that point. No success in America, no confidence, no pull with EMI to do as they pleased, no movie, no trip, no grass, you never know what history may have re-written. Does John leave Cynthia if he's nervous that the band might flame out? Does Paul meet Linda if no one is there photographing them? Does Brian cash out if the touring revenues stalled? Does George Martin move on to another younger band playing a different type of music? Dave Dexter Jr. makes those questions moot.
     
  19. simond9x

    simond9x Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    :biglaugh::biglaugh::biglaugh::biglaugh::biglaugh:
     
  20. slane

    slane Forum Resident

    Location:
    Merrie England
    Yeah, right...
     
  21. yesstiles

    yesstiles Senior Member Thread Starter

    I read that they were recorded during the sessions and soon after chosen to issue as a single instead of being pat of the album. I don't think the day they were recorded they were decided upon yet.
     
  22. Bill

    Bill Senior Member

    Location:
    Eastern Shore
    Actually, I'm a lawyer who practiced for 40 years in the business world before retiring. Thanks for asking.
    UA entered a series of contracts to produce a film starring the Beatles. As a seasoned businessman like you knows, killing the film was not an option.
    In fact, after the film deal was inked, the furniture salesman came to the US on November 5, 1963 to convince Ed Sullivan to agree to feature the Beatles on his show three times in February. He then worked with EMI to force Capitol to finally agree to release the Beatles' records in the US, and to commit $50,000 for promotion, starting in 1964, over the objection of the Capitol braintrust. He then got Walter Shenson and Dick Lester, the film producer and director, to delay the start of filming to March to allow the group to fly to America to do the Sullivan show. It also gave the Beatles time to record soundtrack songs between their return and the March 2 start of shooting, which they did, from February 25-March 1.
    As to what UA wanted and didn't want, like most everything else you post, you have pulled that out of your....Schnitzer.
    Thoughts?
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2019
  23. schnitzerphilip

    schnitzerphilip "Modern Dad" Unlocked Award

    Location:
    NJ USA
    It's not close.

    Anyone who can't recognize that the American Rubber Soul was a landmark statement album in this market has no leg to stand on.
     
  24. schnitzerphilip

    schnitzerphilip "Modern Dad" Unlocked Award

    Location:
    NJ USA
    Never saw that film so I don't get the analogy. What I can say is that the Beatles failed in America without Dave Dexter Jr's help and were the biggest stars on the continent for the next 3 years under his guidance. If that's not fact, not sure what is.
     
  25. simond9x

    simond9x Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    :laughup:
     
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