Sorry for coming into this thread so late but its taken me 4 months to read it all I have 1st release CDs of quite a few Beatle albums as officially released in 1987. Help! and Rubber Soul are the digital remixes, of course. RS and Revolver are from Holland (Benelux) and the others are EMI Swindon in origin. At some point (maybe 1990 or so, maybe a tad earlier) EMI switched to local production through Digital Audio Technologies Australia (DATA). This was around the time that the Apple logo started appearing on Beatles product. After local production, prices dropped so I then picked up PPM, WTB, AHDN and BFS. I actually rang EMI in Sydney after being appalled at With the Beatles. If you listen on headphones you can hear that it was transferred on a stereo machine because the image shifts softly from left to right several times! Anyway, I was eventually put through to a mastering engineer at Studio 301 who told me that the digital tapes to make the Australian discs were provided by Abbey Road and therefore there wasn't anything that could be done to correct the problem So there you have it. No unusual variations on CD available here (unfortunately).
Paolo, It's generally agreed that the Help and Rubber Soul original stereo mixes appeared on CD once production of the CDs in Canada went to local companies like Disque Americ and Cinram. I would imagine we'd only be sure this didn't happen in other countries once similar local pressings were checked and discounted. This would mean tying to get your hands on 'DATA' versions of Help and Rubber Soul to check them out. I know there were a few Aussie contributors to this thread originally, so I don't know if this has been done already. Certainly no-one else has come forward with any other instances of the original stereo mixes of these albums appearing anywhere other than Canada. Chris Incidentally, I see a Canadian Ebay seller has a disque Americ Rubber Soul listed on a 'buy it now' at the moment. After all of the furore over these discoveries a few months back, there doesn't seem to be any takers for this CD now. Looks like the 'at any cost' folk have now got their copies, and what some said were unsustainably high prices for CDs which were probably quite common are now proving to be correct.
The Aussie CDs are the digital mixes too, incidentally. A friend picked up RS and Help! at the same time as I picked up the 'first four'. However, I did pick up an Aussie copy of the Red album shortly before vinyl disappeared altogether. I did so mainly to snag the original stereo versions of the RS tracks. Although the CD from 93 contained the digital mixes, Australia never updated its vinyl versions
The Beatles CDs sold here in Brazil were made locally since 1989, at least. My Rubber Soul was bought in 1990, my Help! perhaps in 1991-2. They were pressed by Microservice. And... they contain the digital remixes.
Both my DATA pressed Help! and Rubber Soul contain the remixes. It's a shame the original mixes didn't get 'accidentally' pressed anywhere but Canada
Well, if we're looking at the same eBay listing, I think it's more because he only offers it at a "buy it now" price of $250 (with no offers below that price accepted). I still see this CD selling in the $90 - $140 range somewhat consistently.
That's exactly what I meant. In the very beginning the final prices being paid for this CD were higher than $250 (whether on a straightforward auction or buy it now) but now the 'at any cost' folk have got their copies, the prices are coming down. It's not quite to the $60 floor being mentioned in this thread a few months back if what you're saying is correct, but it's certainly lower than what this particular seller is offering this CD at hence the apparent lack of takers. Chris
I was wrong when i predicted it would hit $60.00 by last September, but I have seen it sell for in th $70-$80 dollar range quite frequently. The profiteering appears to be over and it will dip down to $60.00 (where it ought to be, IMO) soon enough. You certainly won't see these selling for $350.00 any more. That was criminal!
I actually just sent a message to the seller telling him that nobody is paying $250 for this any more, and that he should re-list with a minimum bid and that he'll likely sell for in between $80-$150. My guess is he will most probably sell at that level, but posting this CD with a BIN of $250 is just a waste of your listing fees.
EMI Mfg of Canada started producing CDs in 1995. Prior to that they were either subcontracted to Canadian pressers (Disque Americ or Cinram) or imported. EMI makes its own discs for its own labels. It is now the only EMI CD plant left in the world. The rest have been either sold or closed. Disque Americ is the North American part of the MPO Group in France, which is a major replicator in France. MPO has been making CDs since 1984. The first Disque Americ plant is in Drummonville, Quebec in Canada opened in 1986 and made the Beatles CDs. Another plant in Charlotte, NC USA was opened in 2003 to make CDs and DVDs. DA was one of the two main replicators to serve Canadian arms of major labels. EMI Canada used them a lot. The name is Americdisc in English. DA recently acquired Denon's US CD plant. Cinram is the largest Canadian presser starting pressing in 1986. They supply or have supplied all of the major labels in Canada. Cinram is now a huge company having acquired WEA Mfg USA and Warner Record Service Germany from WEA, PDO France, and others. They also have a plant in the USA that services EMI USA and BMG Club heavily. Given the above information, and the prior postings, the Beatles CDs with alternate mix were likely made between 1988-1994. There should be plenty of these out there. The change from CDP 7 xxxxx-2 to C2-xxxxx is simply what EMI Canada did with all their releases made in Canada. Also, the "Capitol Canada" copyright info on the CDs is irrelevant to which masters were used. It is simply a standard branding/legal statement that was put on all Canadian pressings from EMI Canada at the time. The company at the time was known as EMI-Capitol Canada, reflecting the Capitol US heritage and EMI UK heritage. All CDs have this including non-Capitol label releases at the time. Nothing to do with the Parlophone masters or Capitol masters. I have some EMI Canada CDs (not Beatles) bought new in Canada from that era and they are all relabeled this way vs. the US or UK counterpart.
RUBBER SOUL DA on ebay At the time of posting bidding was at $4.25, no reserve... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170081807069&fromMakeTrack=true Matt PS: No it is not my auction and I don't know the seller!
maccacollector: I guess they still command higher prices than we thought they we even out to. But my question is: would the price be this high if you hadn't posted the link. I'm not trying to criticize, but I mean, now the cat is out of the bag and any chance for the lucky guy who saw it for $4.95 are over. There was another thread, about a Ray Charles DCC that talked about the etiquette of posting ebay auctions like that. I'm still not sure what I think, but I can tell you that auction is going to go for a lot of money because now everyone's attention is focused out. Sorry! not trying to get on your case, but I just feel bad for whoever was bidding and thought they had a good deal!
I must say I understand what you are saying. On one hand, if something has popped up on eBay that I am looking for I might be glad to get a heads-up. However, it seems like those Hoffman Group Heads-Up just drive prices into the stratosphere making the notification a very mixed blessing. It gets to the point that unless the item has a BIN price, announcing something here only benefits the seller.
I am wary of posting links because of the likely effect and if I know someone's looking for an item, PM with the link instead. I'd be happier personally with BIN options cos otherwise it's think of number and at least double it at the minute.
Well, this thread has been ongoing since last April, so since that time there has been a growing awareness of the rogue Canadian pressings. The cat is certainly out of the bag. The market knows that these two CDs command a premium over the correct pressings, and there's not much that can be done about it. It hasn't been the most active thread for a few months now, but auctions are still carried out. If anyone thought they were going to pull a fast one and get a copy for $4.98 or even $14.98, they were very sadly mistaken. The question is, what should one expect to pay? There are many skeptics on this forum and elsewhere who argue that it shouldn't even be as high as the current auction. There are a couple of days till that auction closes, and it will surely go higher. How high? Depends on how many bidders suffer from Greenspan's "irrational exuberance." These things aren't selling for $400 anymore, though, so I guess the market is cooling. Here's an analagous situation. I copyedit and typeset an investment letter. The authors are in the business of buying beaten-down stocks and watching the market rediscover them. The newsletter has 1,000 subscribers. Some have been around for years and understand the authors' methodology. Others have only heard about the returns these guys have posted, and they subscribe because they think they're going to get the magic key to stock-market riches. Some are even under the impression that the newsletter will be a nonstop source of tips. But sometimes the writers go months without buying anything because, in their estimation, there's no value out there. They then get a lot of grief from these newbies. When they do buy a stock, they wait until the close of trading that day and issue an e-mail alert to the subscribers. Some of them will read the release at 9 p.m. and immediately place a buy order to be executed (at market price, mind you!) first thing the next morning. Naturally, if 200 to 500 people place orders to buy a stock that hasn't shown much movement in months, the sellers start to catch on and raise the asking price. Then these subscribers piss and moan about how they had to pay 10 or 20 percent more than the authors of the newsletter did. Meanwhile, within a couple of days the stock settles back to just a few pennies above what the writers paid. Sometimes, they pull the trigger before the stock has truly recovered, and there's an opportunity to beat their price! Similarly, they've been known to sell before the run-up is complete. If you use your own judgement, there are opportunities to do as well if not better than these guys. The connection is that, whether it's a stock or a Cinram Rubber Soul, you have to decide for yourself what it is worth, and be firm. And if you lose an auction, hope that it means there's one less bidder out there who's going to top you next time. If you absolutely can't be without it, then by all means bid it to the stratosphere. Let's turn the situation around now. What if I find myself at a used record store or garage sale and see one of these Disque Americ honeys priced at $10.99? Am I supposed to approach the seller and say, "My dear sir, you've sadly underestimated the market for this item. Please accept $50, which is what I would gladly pay on eBay but cannot, for those blackguards on the Hoffman forum keep driving up the price."
It probably also doesn't hurt that the seller appears to be very honest and knowledgeable about the situation. That, along with 100% positive feedback after almost 200 transactions, pretty much guarantees no risk of disappointment/problems with the auction...
I agree with you: you should pay as much as you feel the marginal benefit is and depending on demand, the market price may be very high. However, the used CD shop is a great example of the issue of why posting an auction is controversial: imperfect information. An auction on Ebay can go under the radar and the item can sell for less than it would with many more buyers, some with higher marginal benefits. Now these people who are willing to pay whatever have been made privy to an auction they might not have otherwise seen So providing a link, now buyers have been provided with more information (aka where they can find the item when they otherwise couldn't) and now the auction can attract people who are really willing to pay a lot. So the price gets driven up more than it should. Sort of like the lemons and plums example for used cars: because buyers don't know if the car is a lemon or a plum, (broken/defective or in good shape, repectively) they assume all the cars are lemons and only offer lemon prices. Once there is some method of verification for lemons and plums, then buyers have more information about the market and then are willing to pay higher prices for plums and the lemon price for lemons. Although we are not talking about plums and lemons, the information about the market is what is driving up these prices because more buyers are getting more information when you post an auction link.
I'm not sure what you mean by imperfect information. The term suggests incomplete or inaccurate information being spread. Well, anyone reading this thread, if they haven't been totally scrambled by the misinformation found here, will be educated about the item and what makes it unusual and therefore desirable. But I don't see anything incomplete, inaccurate or "imperfect" being disseminated as a result of someone bringing that auction to our attention. See, it doesn't seem like the problem you're describing is "imperfect information" as much as "too much information in too many hands." Yeah, I'd love to find Steve's mastering of Ringo for cheap -- too bad so many people in this forum know about it. Drat! You know what else burns my bacon? When someone writes a favourable review of my favourite restaurant, and before I know it I can't get a table. No, no, no. If more consumers are more educated, the market works better. Otherwise, you get a few yokels who are under the misconception that a DA Rubber Soul is worth $400, and before you know it every copy that shows up on eBay is selling for $400. I'm looking at that auction, and the high bid has been $79 all day. That suggests that buyers aren't jumping all over each other to get it. That's because buyers know what it's worth, and they're not going to go nuts outbidding one another. Believe me. You don't want to be in a market with a bunch of dumb buyers. If you want a bargain, the seller is the one who needs to be out to lunch.
It hadn't moved when I checked at work (auntie Caroline no doubt will get slapped wrists on Monday for accessing ebay in works time!) so may be everybody's whose interested has 'declared'. Ebay, I finds a bit all over the place when it comes to value.
Yeah the imperfect information was a bad analogy. I guess I meant to say informing buyers of these auctions will drive up the price. But for Ringo DCC, there really weren't that many sold, but now demand has picked up for them, hence the really high prices. I really don't think the Rubber Soul CD is as rare as everyone thinks. Well if they are uninformed of what its value is sure. But if people are misinformed as to where they can bid on this, hey I'm not complaining I guess we'll just sit tight until someone posts a Cinram in this thread again
