Netflix: The Irishman - Robert De Niro, Martin Scorsese, Al Pacino, Joe Pesci & Harvey Keitel.

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by Veech, Apr 29, 2017.

  1. Tom Campbell

    Tom Campbell Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boston, MA
    You've made this point several times and I'm baffled -- are you really saying De Niro, Pacino, and Pesci should simply stop working to make way for "younger talent?"

    In general, younger actors have a much easier time of it in Hollywood. It's older actors who often have trouble finding good roles. And these particular roles are so obviously perfect for these specific actors.

    I'm equally baffled by all the griping (from many) about the de-aging in the early scenes. When you make a movie that follows a character over many decades, there really is no perfect solution. You can cast two different actors for the younger and older scenes, which presents its own set of problems; there is often a real disconnect is being able to view two different actors as the same person. Or you can cast a younger actor and put prosthetic makeup on him in the later scenes, which usually looks crummy. Or you can cast an older actor and try to de-age him in the early scenes via makeup or digital effects, which is also not totally convincing. Given the choices, the filmmaker needs to decide which is more important to the overall work.

    I myself think Scorsese made exactly the right decision. Playing an elderly Frank looking back on his life, I think De Niro absolutely nails the last act of the movie. If it had been a young actor playing those scenes with latex on his face, the scenes would have been robbed of almost all their power.

    Yes, the early scenes with young Frank do look kind of odd and unconvincing; but it was essential to the overall work that the later scenes be played by a genuinely older actor.
     
  2. Wildest cat from montana

    Wildest cat from montana Humble Reader

    Location:
    ontario canada
    [QUOTE="GregM, post: 22884713, member: 68" I am admit I have not seen The Irishman and have no desire to see it.[/QUOTE]
    You're missing out on a very good movie....
     
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  3. GregM

    GregM The expanding man

    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    The point I've made several times is about using younger actors specifically for the parts of the movie when the characters were younger rather than this CGI nonsense. I never said that the actors should stop working, although -- let's face it -- most people at their age with their bank accounts would have long since retired. From what I understand, Pesci considered himself retired and De Niro strong-armed him out of retirement.

    Similar roles were perfect for those actors throughout the '70s, '80s and '90s. At what point can we cry "uncle"?

    It was De Niro's project from the start, set up for him to nail that last act, and all the decisions were made for him to be the big movie star. With different decisions, different actors could have been intro'ed. But I agree, that wasn't a possibility for this movie because of the way De Niro pushed to set it up.

    Scorsese may have missed out as well. He could have spent the last few years reinventing himself instead of yet another mafia film with De Niro. His film due out in 2021 features Dicaprio and De Niro. Frankly, I'd like to see more work from him like Kundun. He certainly has the skill and vision to work with any actor.
     
  4. Richard--W

    Richard--W Forum Resident

    You reject the premise on which this film was made.

    I reject your critique.

    Scorsese and company did nothing wrong and have nothing to apologize for.

    There's nothing wrong with the film nor in how it is cast.

    If you don't like the film, that's your problem.
     
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  5. Frangelico

    Frangelico Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Another tiresome and bigoted stereotyping of Italian Americans from “enlightened” Hollywood. It never ends - My Cousin Vinny, Who’s the Boss, Friends, Greenbook, Spike Lee and, especially, Scorsese. If these portrayals were incessantly done with other groups as they are with Italians they’d rightfully be called racist.

    Besides the film’s demeaning depictions, it isn’t particularly good - a laborious, decrepit caricature of past efforts. If the world received its history of the Italian experience from Hollywood and Scorsese, Ancient Rome, the Renaissance, Opera, some of the world’s finest literature and poetry, neorealist film, numerous scientific discoveries, and myriad other contributions, cultural and otherwise, would be stricken from the past and present. This rich canvas is available to the likes of Scorsese yet he and others continue to myopically peddle in false perceptions.
     
  6. Dok

    Dok Senior Member

  7. Richard--W

    Richard--W Forum Resident

    Preposterous.

    The Irishman does not claim to represent all Italian-Americans.
    Most people are intelligent enough to understand that Scorsese
    is making a true crime film about these particular individuals.
    Scorsese has the right to make films about what he knows just as
    other Italian-Americans have the right to make films about what
    they know.

    Italian crime films made in Italy by Italians depict a darker,
    crueler world. There are many of these. You gonna take their
    cameras away, too?

    You're just trying to provoke an argument so that you can get the
    thread closed.
     
  8. Frangelico

    Frangelico Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    The preponderance of high profile Hollywood films depicting Italian Americans casts them in a generally negative and stereotypical light. It would be akin to casting other groups of people in film after film in a stereotypical manner which would be absurd and ignorant. Do a Google search, this stereotyping is blatant and well-known and has been called out many times, yet Hollywood continues its bigoted ways.

    Yes there are Italian crime films made in Italy, as well as many other films made in Italy. The greatest films from Italy are not crime dramas and never have been. Conversely, in Hollywood all Italians are apparently uncouth buffoons and thugs. This is the very definition of bigotry. Let’s call it for what it is. It’s blatant and obvious. I’m not taking any cameras away, just calling Scorsese and Hollywood out for their juvenile focus on a certain very narrow and false depiction of an entire class of people.
     
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  9. Vanguardsman

    Vanguardsman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Marco Island, FL
    But I can't think of one person I know under age 25 who would sit still for this movie.
     
  10. Richard--W

    Richard--W Forum Resident

    More age discrimination.

    The real problem is persons under 25 are unable to sit still, period.
    Besides, Scorsese doesn't need to dumb it down for people under 25.
    Like I said before, this movie was made for grown-ups.
     
  11. mikeyt

    mikeyt Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    I'm always down for movie discussions and debating merits, but after some expressed the silly notion that studios balked b/c of the de-aging I dipped out of the thread. This NYT article briefly discusses how Scorsese came to Netflix w/ The Irishman; it was mainly that Netflix let him make his movie with the fewest concessions (limited theatrical release) while fronting most of the very large bill ($160M budget). For any filmmaker used to working in the studio system this is a no-brainer move. Studio notes are notoriously, literally stupid.

    "But whatever the subject matter, Scorsese said he felt drained by these films, usually near their conclusions, when he inevitably found himself butting heads with studio executives who wanted the running times shortened.

    “The last two weeks of editing and mixing ‘The Aviator,’” a coproduction that included Warner Bros. and Miramax, among others, “I had left the business from the stress,” he recalled. “I said if this is the way you have to make films then I’m not going to do it anymore.”

    He did not quit, of course, but he has increasingly turned to independent financiers to back his projects, believing that he and the studio system had become mortal enemies. “It’s like being in a bunker and you’re firing out in all directions,” he said. “You begin to realize you’re not speaking the same language anymore, so you can’t make pictures anymore.”

    Martin Scorsese Is Letting Go
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2020
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  12. BZync

    BZync Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    If I haven't gotten my wires crossed, you haven't viewed the film you are critiquing. If that is so, I find the above statement not to have any teeth. If you watch this film, you may come away feeling it is not just "another Mafia film" - because it isn't. You are missing the entire point of this film - by not bothering to view it.

    If I am incorrect about your having seen it - my apologies. Hard to keep track.

    My 19 year old daughter saw it in the theater and sat still the entire time. So that's one. I don't believe this film was made to appeal to a particular age group or demographic. It's a mature and personal character study. I reject the idea that anyone under 25 cannot appreciate a film such as this one.
     
  13. 500Homeruns

    500Homeruns Peaceful Punk

    Location:
    Lehigh Valley, PA
    I thought the movie was great. Having said that, I don't believe Frank Sheeran killed Hoffa.
     
  14. Richard--W

    Richard--W Forum Resident

    I don't know what to believe in Sheeran's account. Other accounts contradict
    him, including the official police versions of the Hoffa circumstances and the
    Gallo hit, for example. I'm inclined to think there's a measure of truth in all
    Sheeran's "hit" scenarios, but how much and which parts? Perhaps Sheeran
    doesn't know all the details and is just telling about his role while withholding
    incriminating information about others. In any case Scorsese and De Niro
    must have been aware of the discrepancies when they decided to commit
    themselves to telling Sheeran's story. They wanted to depict his version, and
    they were right to do so. It's a fascinating film.
     
  15. Richard--W

    Richard--W Forum Resident

    An enlightening interview. Thanks for posting the link.
     
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  16. Monosterio

    Monosterio Forum Resident

    Location:
    South Florida
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
  17. Chazro

    Chazro Forum Resident

    Location:
    West Palm Bch, Fl.
    Gotta feeling the movie's going to wind up with one of those posters touting all the great things it was nominated for!

    The boys'll be the 1st ones to tell ya, if yr not 1st, yr last!

    It's only a matter of time before we get the famous laughing Pesci/Liota pic; "....and than they nominated it for....."!;)
     
  18. KAT

    KAT Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin, Tx
    Don't know if this has been posted yet, but I think Deniro looks a lot better in this version.
     
  19. John Moschella

    John Moschella Senior Member

    Location:
    Christiansburg, VA
    I just tried to watch this film. I will say that I generally like most Scorsese and love Goodfellas and Casino. So I should like this right?
    Made it about 40 min, couldn't get past the CGI de-aging, it looks creepy. Do people think this is realistic?
    Reminds me a little of Sin City, which I liked.
    Nothing worse that a guy with a 40 year old face and a 70 year old body, doesn't really work as far as I am concerned.
    I might give it another shot.
     
  20. Richard--W

    Richard--W Forum Resident

    I couldn't care less about the age and de-aging.
    I'm absorbed into the dramaturgy and visuality of the thing.
     
  21. BEAThoven

    BEAThoven Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Jersey
    Hey, that was pretty interesting!

    But, if anything, it's the choice of eye color for DeNiro that weirded me out!
     
  22. budwhite

    budwhite Climb the mountains and get their good tidings.

    Location:
    Götaland, Sverige
    [​IMG]

    Criterion is releasing The Irishman later this year
     
  23. alexpop

    alexpop Power pop + other bad habits....

    Theatrical version ?

    Even longer cut?

    Any more CGI deaging work done for the media version I wonder?
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2020
  24. Richard--W

    Richard--W Forum Resident

    I'll be buying the Criterion blu-ray.
     
  25. AirJordanFan93

    AirJordanFan93 Forum Resident

    This for me as well. I thought the actual de-aging was fine but man those blue eyes were just really off-putting.
     

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