Rock and Roll Hall Fame Class of 2020 is...

In the broadest sense, yes. But if I met someone who said "Otis Redding wasn't that great", I'd feel confident completely discounting his or her musical taste. There are some artists who are as close to being objectively great as you can possibly get in a subjective arena.

 

2Pac and Biggie are the most influential rap artists of their generation. The “who is better” debate is the Beatles vs. Stones of the hip hop world.

Here’s a starter:

Biggie Smalls: The Voice That Influenced A Generation

 

Thanks. I'll explore that....

 

I agree. Whitney Houston is certainly in that league among her generation.

 

It’s an interesting read. I’m not much of a hip hop fan - I lean toward country and pop far more. But the history of it is fascinating.

 

Warwick could always look into the future if she would ever get in. Shes still staring into the globe till this day

 

I think that Hendrix or Vernon Reid belong in a discussion about rock but I certainly don't think Whitney Houston does. It might have something to do with the actual genres in question as opposed to whether Vernon and Whitney were black.

If you think 'influence' on rock is the deciding factor as opposed to courting commercial relevance in North America where hip hop/r&b have become more significant commercially, then I'd love to hear about that. Make sure to tell me how you think that Bach hasn't had significant musical impact on all sorts of popular music (including rock) and shouldn't be inducted by that criterion.

The sort of incoherent and ideologically motivated swipes some are taking here at critics of the Rock Hall are both comical and sad.

 

You can't cite what isn't there, but pretty much any decent critical writing about Whitney genuflects to her ability to cross over and transcend genres. She was as much a rock artist as a gospel or R'n'B artist. She sang just about everything and had great success with most of it. Very soon after she died people realized what she had been doing all along, which was stepping over arbitrary genre expectations and smashing every one of them down in the process. Seriously, go back and read the obituaries that ran in 2012 when she passed... I don't think you're going to find them in 'rock encyclopedias' though

 

Fair enough. For me, Whitney falls into the Celine Dion/Mariah Carey category. A great technical singer, but not a great musical expressionist. That is, she can hit all the notes - even to the point of making you say WOW! - but rarely delivers a song in a way that moves me.

To use a rock analogy - it's the difference between a guitar player like David Gilmour - who can move me with a single note - and Yngwie Malmstein, who has dexterity and chops for days but produces no feeling in me whatsoever.

This my personal take on it, not a blanket statement. So, if Whitney moves you, I'm completely down with that.

 

I actually like a lot of the so-called "white guys with guitars" and "Classic rock" acts. It's called the ability of actually being able to enjoy more than one genre of music (ie, my last concert was Slayer, my next concert is Diana Ross), something a lot of hard rockers can't grasp, i.e. the metalhead who whined about how anyone could possibly enjoy listening to Simon And Garfunkel's music because it doesn't rock. But the issue is that some of you think that the center of the universe revolves around a certain strain of rock music that Zeppelin, Sabbath, Metallica, etc..... belong to to the point you'll blanketly dismiss anything that doesn't fall into the same guidelines.

Madonna may not make rock music (though i think there's exceptions, a song like Burning Up could've been done by a one hit wonder new wave rock act in 1983) but she's always played the game like a rock star, and I think that compensates for whatever genre her music falls into. She was always more Jagger and less Streisand.

 

Are Whitney/BIG going to sell tickets in Cleveland? Unless Beyonce is singing. Cissy accepting the award will be weird, since Whitney's divorced Bobbi Brown and the daughter died.

I also wonder about TRex selling tickets. Too many dead members and no obvious band to cover them. Bolan friend Elton John has a Detroit show May 2nd, so he won't be inducting them.

Doobies have 50-60 shed shows this summer that are selling well. Why would anyone choose a 3 song RRHOF set over a 2+ hour one? I can't see Skunk tipping the scales much.

Who was influenced by Whitney that wasn't also influenced by Aretha?

They've done well in arenas for about 20 years, but there's lots of strong openers and closed balconies on those tours. IMO, they won't solo headline a US arena tour again.

Can any of these acts "play nice for 30 minutes" with all original members? Soundgarden/Vicki Cornell, Oasis/Brothers are in the same boat. Maybe Joy Division-New Order/Peter Hook as well.

The RRHOF are sensitive to this issue and protecting it's TV broadcast. Noel Gallagher admitted he was visited by one of their guys to see gauge their interest level.

UK Music Hall of Fame - Wikipedia

Sir Cliff-Shadows
Dick Dale
Link Wray

The costumes/guitars/stage prop Cleveland photos I've seen actually look VERY cool and worth a visit.

 

So it has come to this: Whitney Houston was as much a rock artist as an r&b artist.

No, she wasn't, not even remotely, but thank you for a very unambiguous illustration of the incoherence which runs through these 'arguments'

Was Whitney also as much of a jazz artist as she was an r&b artist? How about bel canto? Does any genre mean anything besides what it's expedient to claim in an ad hoc manner?

 

The fan vote is one out of a thousand, and the fact that it has previously matched up is a demonstration of the difference between correlation and causation.

 

One big takeaway from this discussion: Maybe it's time to do away with Halls of Fame, categories, genres and award shows and just remember what the Duke said:



Then we can have a "Good Music Hall of Fame" and go to war about what belongs there.

 

To me the fundamental difference between Mariah and Celine/Whitney is that Mariah is a songwriter and has more say about the direction of her music. She started out as Tommy Mottola's puppet but once she had enough clout to speak for herself, she reinvented herself into more of an r&b artist and started working with rappers at a time this was unthinkable, especially given Mariah was initially marketed to the Gloria Estefan/Amy Grant crowd. Although doing so actually helped work in Celine's favor because the more r&b Mariah's music got, Celine only got bigger in the AC world compared to earlier in the 90s when she was competing with Mariah.

 

You are arguing with a phantom and mired in incoherewnce. I am not even remotely speaking to quality, preference or taste. This isn't about which music I listen to or prefer. It's about what rock is, independently of my personal preferences or yours.

I am not dismissing any of the music you cited (Madonna, Diana Ross, Whitney etc) as music, good, bad or indifferent. I am dismissing it AS ROCK.

Genres have centers of gravity which can be observed. Asserting Whitney is rock doesn't make it so.

 

I always put Whitney Houston more in the church tradition of Aretha. Celine and Mariah make interesting comparisons. If you have some time, check out live clips of the three ladies. Celine and Mariah attempt to recreate the record, note for note, whenever they sing one of their hits live. Whitney always interpreted the lyrics differently every single time. She was a stylist. Her band had to stay on their toes because she’d take it in a different direction each time.

 

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
William Shakespeare

Even the bard calls you out.

 

I do admire Mariah as a person and for what she's accomplished. She seems massively cool and has overcome a lot to get to her iconic status.

I just hate her singing with the heat of a thousand suns. But that's on me and I would never argue with anyone who loves her music. there are a lot of artists I just don't get and she happens to be one of them.

 

It's not the Rock Hall of Fame. It's the Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame. Listen to Fats Domino, Sam Cooke and The Platters until you get that.

 

In my more charitable moments toward Whitney, I also see quite a bit of Nancy Wilson and Dinah Washington in her. Two singers I really like.

I just have a congenital problem with any musician who overplays (or, in this case, oversings). A personal bugaboo. And Whitney too often went for the home run when a sharply hit single would have sufficed.

To go back to Aretha - when she took a home run swing it was always at just the right moment and provided just the right impact. Whitney went to that well a bit too often for my tastes.

 

I can’t stand to listen to Mariah Carey myself. But I’m with you on the admiration. She could’ve stayed in the AC lane for her entire career, but she wanted to do hip-hop flavored music, and she was so instrumental in taking the rap/sung collaboration mainstream. It’s even got its own Grammy category now.

 

Objective facts, like record sales, etc. are one thing. But everyone is going to have a different opinion of artistic merit. And artistic merit is certainly a consideration.

 

I don't know; but during Whitney's heyday she was absolutely pervasive on radio and TV, and Aretha had already gone from diva status to elder Queen... a big difference to the younger generation coming up, as far as who's style you imitate and glean from

 

Remember when Jethro Tull beat Metallica for best Hard Rock/Heavy Metal recording at the Grammys?

None of these award shows or institutions are anything but trite arbirary decisions made by a commitee in the most un-rock n' roll fasion

At least they gave us a moment where Prince shredded guitar on While My Guitar Gently Weeps, I will give them that