Classical Corner Classical Music Corner

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by George P, May 29, 2015.

  1. crispi

    crispi Vinyl Archaeologist

    Location:
    Berlin
    I have that disc as well. Typical overprocessed Abbey Road mastering. It’s a shame.
     
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  2. Wes H

    Wes H Forum Resident

    Location:
    Virginia
    On the turntable tonight... more Fauré, played by Collard, from Pathé Marconi EMI (France). This LP is a digital recording released in 1985.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. crispi

    crispi Vinyl Archaeologist

    Location:
    Berlin
    @George P — I often found myself in contradiction with you when it came to mastering on classical CDs. Since classical does not suffer from the loudness plague like other parts of the CD industry, I was mostly of the opinion that, in general, classical remasters sounded great. However, as time has passed and I've sampled more and more of the classical repertoire, I find myself much more in agreement with you now.

    Meaning, yes, there is extreme value in seeking out older masterings of classical music on CD, especially when it comes to recordings from the analogue era.

    Case in point: EMI. There is no general rule of thumb, but it seems to me that EMI (now continuing as part of Warner) has the worst track record when it comes to remastering. Older CDs seem to have a more relaxed sound, while from the late '90s onwards, as computer audio workstations gained ground, series like Great Recordings of the Century have introduced increasingly strained and overprocessed sound, and the newest high resolution transfers are the worst in my opinion, introducing harsh EQ. Sure, there are many examples of bad transfers on old CDs as well, especially when it comes to historical series like Références, which is pretty much hit-and-miss. It seems to me that Abbey Road mastering engineers always have had a preference for inserting themselves into the final product and tinkering with it too much.

    When it comes to other major labels, the interconnected triad of Deutsche Grammophon, Philips and Decca did a pretty good job from the start. DG has the most variance in sound approach, I find, with some series like Originals having a temporary preference for overemphasising the mids, and some recordings are available in a myriad of different mixes altogether (for instance, Kleiber's). In general, all of the above three labels has had a pretty decent track record when it comes to remastering.

    However, I still find gems in those catalogues while digging up older, non-remastered CDs. For instance, almost all of the early Decca CDs from the 1980s are amazing. Even Philips has some unexpected finds, like Kovacevich's Grieg & Schumann recording which has wider frequency response on the 1980s CD (with boring, non-descript artwork). And even series like DG's Galleria, which was a low-price imprint, happens to have the best transfers for some particular recordings.

    If one were to talk in general, I think that in the early days of digital technology, labels opted for a more no-frills approach to transfering their back catalogue onto the CD medium. I guess mostly it meant getting a flat transfer of the master tape into digital.

    In appreciating these old CDs, one has to get rid of any preconceptions. Remasters most of the time will seem more immediate and grab your attention. If one can resist this momentary excitement (and given that there has been no mishandling done to the master tape transfer on the older CD), I often find that the warmer, less exciting, less in-your-face sound of older CDs is more rewarding in the long run.
     
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  4. George P

    George P Notable Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYC
    Glad to hear that we are on the same page . . . and aren't frequenting the same used stores. :laugh:

    Yes, the Abbey Road mastering engineers seem intent on making 1930s-1950s recordings sound like they were recorded in the 1990s. As a result, they heavily EQ (roll off) the top end and we end up with a muffled sound that deadens the tone of the original. All I can say is thank goodness for labels like Naxos Historical, Pearl and Biddulph that did not take this approach to historical recordings in their remasters.

    I imagine there are people out there who have no tolerance for tape hiss/surface noise, I know that at first I didn't, but these days I want a more open, less futzed with sound. Sadly, the labels that do this kind of work are getting harder and harder to find. Marston Records and APR are among the very few that come to mind.

    I should add that when I express my admiration for labels above, I mean labels that hire great transfer/mastering engineers (like Ward Marson, Mark Obert-Thorn and Seth Winner) AND then don't doctor their work after the fact. Or course it's the transfer/mastering engineer who does all the hard work, but like with rock/pop, they only have as much freedom as the label allows. Bravo to labels that allow the great transfer engineers to do their great work!

    My experience is that original masterings for those labels usually sound better to me than their remasters. It's not that the remasters are terrible, but the originals have more musical information than their remastered counterparts. The DG, Philips and Decca remasters sound to me like they are trying to sound modern, though to a lesser extent than the folks at EMI.

    To me, Philips original CDs have the best sound of any of the labels above. For that reason, I always grab an original Philips CD when available. All of the Arrau CDs are a great example.

    Yes, the Galleria is a great series. I have a Richter CD from that series that betters the sound from a remaster that came 25 years later. So much for progress. :laugh:

    I have less and less experience in this area, for I don't buy a lot of classical these days. For those that I have compared, I generally find classical remasters, with their dull sound, to be less exciting than the originals. The Valentin Faure CD I mentioned above sounds like the woman is playing in the next room. And these are classic performances, revered by many, many people. They deserve much better.
     
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  5. crispi

    crispi Vinyl Archaeologist

    Location:
    Berlin
    I forgot where it was, but someone posted on this forum scans of a very early magazine (from 1984, I believe) talking at lenght about the then-new CD medium. The first thing they mentioned in the first paragraph: CDs have no hiss, no background noise! On all the reviews of early CDs they posted, about half the space was spent on analysing whether there was tape noise or not on the recording.

    I bet you this early obsession with “no noise” lent to many bad decisions in the industry and many botched CD masterings, especially in the pop realm. Imagine what could have had if every company in the first 10 years of the CD's existence just issued unfutzed-with transfers of their tapes. Instead, the “hi-fi people” (let's be honest, audio critics and early audiophiles) messed it up for all of us.
     
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  6. George P

    George P Notable Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYC
    How wonderful that would be! :love:
     
  7. J.A.W.

    J.A.W. Music Addict

    Ah, to have "young ears" again... I used to be just as critical about sound quality as others here, but unfortunately my hearing is not getting better, on the contrary. I don't mind getting older, but aging hearing is a nuisance :)
     
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  8. drh

    drh Talking Machine

    Without quoting anything (too much length), the immediately foregoing discussion between @George P and @crispi gets to the heart of why I started collecting 78s from early on. Back in the LP era, I found that all reissues of 78s sounded terrible, and I much preferred what I could get--even with minimal knowledge and equipment--from original 78 RPM pressings.

    Transfers have improved since then; some CD issues of 78s are really quite good. Some aren't. But old habits, and especially old collecting habits, die hard....
     
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  9. Sorcerer

    Sorcerer Senior Member

    Location:
    Netherlands
    [​IMG]
    Ronald Brautigam Beethoven The Piano Concertos (BIS, SACD)
    Ronald Brautigam's latest recording of the Beethoven piano concertos, this time on fortepiano. Wonderful performances and recording.
     
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  10. George P

    George P Notable Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYC
    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Speaking of Faure and digital masterings done right, now enjoying this CD. The pianist knew Faure and studied his compositions with him. She also had the Ravel G Major Concerto dedicated to her and gave the premiere of it with the composer conducting.
     
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  11. Mirror Image

    Mirror Image 200 Years Of Anton Bruckner

    Location:
    United States
    First-Listen Saturdays!

    The 1st, 2nd and 3rd SQs from this set:

    [​IMG]
     
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  12. dale 88

    dale 88 Errand Boy for Rhythm

    Location:
    west of sun valley
    This is fifth volume in the Mozart series of Piano Concertos etc, from Bavouzet and Gabor Takacs-Nagy. This is the first one I have heard. I liked it very much. Who knew Gabor Takacs-Nagy was such a good Mozart conductor? It is from a five-year project to record every Mozart Piano Concerto "in the most acoustically advanced concert hall in the country -- The Stoller Hall, which is part of Chetham's School of Music."

    from the notes - "The vivid and theatrical performance style, inspired by a daring approach from the Hungarian musicologist Laszlo Somfai has led to each project's being paired with Mozart's less-well-known and extraordinary Opera Overtures."

    Jean-Efflam Bavouzet, piano
    Manchester Camerata
    Gabor Takacs-Nagy
    Chandos, 2020
    2 CDs
    Concertos 5, 6, 8, 9. Overtures to: La finta giardiniera; Il sogno di Scipione; Lucio Silla; Il re pastore; Ziade.
    [​IMG]
     
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  13. Wes H

    Wes H Forum Resident

    Location:
    Virginia
    Just finished playing music of Gabriel Fauré, played by French pianist Jean-Philippe Collard... for the 5th night in a row! Again, a fabulous performance and recording.
    Tonight it was the 13 Barcarolles. Recorded in the Salle Wagram, Paris, 1974, and first issued on the French Pathé Marconi EMI label.
    This is a 1975 U.S. release by the Connoisseur Society.

    [​IMG]
     
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  14. Rose River Bear

    Rose River Bear Senior Member

    I have the box set with Collard. His Faure is great IMO.
    I don't think there is a recording of his that I don't like....especially the French composers.
     
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  15. George P

    George P Notable Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYC
    You should start your own label. I'd be regular customer!

    (My 40,000th post)
     
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  16. Wes H

    Wes H Forum Resident

    Location:
    Virginia
    This evening I'm listening another Jean-Philippe Collard recording, but this time it is the incredible Rachmaninoff Etudes Tableaux.
    Originally recorded by Pathé Marconi EMI in 1972. This U.S. release on a Connoisseur Society LP is dated 1975.

    [​IMG]
     
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  17. Wes H

    Wes H Forum Resident

    Location:
    Virginia
    Congratulations on the milestone, George!
    Very impressive. :righton:

    When did this CMC thread originally begin?
     
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  18. George P

    George P Notable Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYC
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  19. drh

    drh Talking Machine

    :cheers: :edthumbs: :tiphat:
     
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  20. Rose River Bear

    Rose River Bear Senior Member

    WOW. Congrats on that milestone!
     
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  21. Rose River Bear

    Rose River Bear Senior Member

    A question to Sibelius fans including @Mirror Image ......I don't have the Berglund/Bournemouth cycle. I have about four others including the Berglund/Helsinki cycle. Do I really need another? I have been reading the Bournemouth is the best there is. Any thoughts?

    [​IMG]
     
  22. George P

    George P Notable Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYC
    Sorry, can't help firsthand, but . . .

    This thread might help: Sibelius Symphonies
     
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  23. Mirror Image

    Mirror Image 200 Years Of Anton Bruckner

    Location:
    United States
    I prefer the Berglund Bournemouth recordings because of their rawness and fieriness. I think Berglund later on viewed the composer a bit differently in trying to smooth him out but that edge that he had earlier on is gone in the Helsinki and Chamber Orchestra of Europe cycles. But at the end of the day, let your ears be the judge. I bought the Tower Records released hybrid SACD of the Berglund/Bournemouth last year and have enjoyed the improved sonics. I also ended up buying the companion disc with Ida Haendel/Berglund/Bournemouth in the Violin Concerto (also on hybrid SACD).
     
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  24. Mirror Image

    Mirror Image 200 Years Of Anton Bruckner

    Location:
    United States
    Dvořák
    In Nature's Realm, Op. 91
    Carnival, Op. 92
    Othello, Op. 93

    Czech Philharmonic Orchestra
    Václav Neumann


    [​IMG]
     
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  25. Wes H

    Wes H Forum Resident

    Location:
    Virginia
    On this gray, rainy afternoon I am enjoying this album of Brahms and Stravinsky, performed by Misha Dichter--a pianist whose name one rarely hears about today.

    RCA Red Seal LP / US press / 1968.

    [​IMG]
     
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