Yep...had an Oracle Delphi,Fidelity Research arm and numerous multi thousand $ cartridges over the years,then i quit vinyl and sold my phono gear(my wife wouldn't let me sell my records,god love her)a year later (as predicted by my wife)i got back into vinyl...a bit simpler and cheaper system for sure,but still makes my records sound great without too much fiddling
I don't like that digital sort of signature sound in vinyl gear. It doesn't work great for classical. I can see how other genres might be okay.
This thread has been very interesting to me. I have recently gotten back into vinyl, having taken my 1975 Technics SL-1500 out of the box for the first time in well over a decade. It has seen very little use since 1985, but with only minimal restorative effort is functioning fine. I still have the original AT15Sa cartridge I bought at the same time, and it is also working fine, though its stylus has seen better days (I just bought a fine replacement stylus). I found on the shelf, I believe completely unused, an original Dynavector DV/Karat Ruby cartridge, bought in Japan (where I lived) in 1980 or 1981. I confirmed that it was in fine working order and then set about to find a reasonably priced MC phono stage. Before learning about the issues of preamp gain discussed in this thread, I invested a very reasonable sum ($179) in purchasing a Music Fidelity V90-LPS phono stage, which I had seen had very good reviews overall, and handles both mm and mc. But now I am concerned whether it has sufficient output gain to handle the very low (.2mV) output of the DV/Karat. I have to turn the volume on the receiver (currently a Kenwood AR-304, but also have 3 or 4 others I could use) quite high, and while some records are better than others and sound fine, others do not. I am concerned whether I might have purchased the V90 too soon, before I had done all necessary research, though at its price point I am not particularly concerned about the expenditure. The V90 LPS doesn’t have variable gain, and has no published gain info at all, apparently. So I have no idea what the setting may be. (Does anyone know?) The more I look into optimal preamp gain, the more I see how complicated it can get. There seem to be so many factors (impedance, cable length, and a whole bunch more things I barely understand) beyond the formula described in the first post in this thread. I am really not concerned with figuring out how to determine an exact “optimal” gain setting for this cartridge, but would like to understand if there are any better preamp options that will not break the bank. Is there a decent MC stage that will deliver variable (or higher) gain sufficient for this cartridge that is still reasonably affordable? Would adding a SUT into the chain be of any use? Any other approaches, considerations, etc. that should be factored into the whole affair, whether conceptually or with respect to specific equipment? Any other concerns I should be thinking about generally on this issue? I am usually good at learning what I need to know when these types of situations arise, but I feel like I have already fallen into a bottomless rabbit hole. So please let me benefit from the collective experts and mavens assembled here, and let me have your thoughts and suggestions. Do I need to spend a few thousand dollars to realize the performance of the DV/Karat Ruby? Or is there perhaps some other, less costly approach? Or am I perhaps not even asking the right questions? TIA. <sigh>
The gain for the MF is listed in the spec below ... written a different way, it's 40dB for MM and 57.5dB for MC, so yea, not really quite enough for a 0.2mV cartridge, but also depends on what the rest of your gain structure is after that. Input sensitivity: 3.0mV (MM), 400μV (MC) - for 300mV out
Agreed. In most systems (and I would expect in nvilletele's with line input sensitivity of of 200 mV on the receiver), I believe you would want to have about 63-65 dB of gain with a .2 mV cartridge. The formula posted in this thread probably calls for even more! Being short 7-8 dB of gain is going to leave you very compromised with a low output MC like that. Like listening through a wet blanket with many records and likely most but those that are cut very hot. Solutions are: 1) Ditch the cartridge and get one that more closely matches up with the phono stage 2) Ditch the phono stage and get one that matches up with the cartridge 3) Modify the phono stage to increase the gain 4) Introduce an SUT or head amp and another set of interconnects that would boost the gain by about 25 dB and run through the MM section of the MF Phono Preamp.
Agreed with the other responses. A bit more research would've told you the gain is not quite sufficient for that cartridge. With switchable MM/MC phono preamps at that price point, often you end up with something that is a very decent MM stage with MC "thrown in" as an afterthought and sales point feature that many folks will simply never use. Worst case scenario, you end up with something that is a jack of all trades and master of none. A really good MC preamp can be expensive, especially ones that are made to work with very high levels of gain and lower levels of distortion.
It doesn't seem like an absolute disaster to me. You say you have to turn the volume of your Kenwood quite high, but as long as it's not set at max constantly and you have some headroom left on your integrated, you might get by. How loud do you usually listen?
All is not lost and the DV Karat is an awesome cartridge worth making the effort for. The minimum recommended gain is 64 db and the max is 74 db. The best value preamp I would recommend is the Lehmann Black Cube SE II (street price ~ 1000 US). It is not a very good MM preamp- they sunk all the investment into making it an excellent MC preamp and would give your cartridge a clean, safe 66db of gain as well as the appropriate loading options.
Wow, I am amazed at the number, quality and speed of the responses. Awesome. Thank you all. I am thinking of keeping the cartridge, so the option (1) of ditching it mentioned by blakep is out. Re option 2, I am not sure how I would modify the gain on the MF phono preamp I have, and not sure it is worth investigating that option, as the money I might spend on that may perhaps be better placed in purchasing other equipment. Re option 3, and the suggestion from Avanti1960 for the black cube SE II, $1000 is a bit more than I would ideally like to spend here, and it seems closer to 1200 from my brief search (I couldn’t find many places selling it. Any suggestions on someone in the US actually selling it for $1000 (or under)? Not my first choice, due to cost, but a possibility still. Re Option 4, The Hagerman Piccolo (now Piccolo 2) as suggested by jupiterboy and seconded by Benzion seems an option, and at $249 will not break the bank. Any other brands/units anyone might recommend ? By the way, what is the difference between a SUT and a headamp? I understand they fulfill similar functions, but what is the difference? Is SUT for mm and headamp for mc? (Terminology in the more esoteric areas can get confusing. Sometimes two terms are identical and used interchangeably, other times they have specific differences, I am finding out.) Finally, I am also considering the option suggested by clercqie to just use my system as is. I do like to listen quite loud though. A separate thought is to change my receiver. The Kenwood AR304 supposedly puts out 100 Watts per channel, but I have seen that questioned as to whether it really can reach that. My other receiver options are: Technics SU-V96 Onkyo HT-R410 (5.1) Denon AVR-2808CI (7.1) (I think all the above are 100 watts per channel) Nikko-NA 590 (35 watts per channel, so likely not a contender) And to complete the picture, I am using Bose 901 series 1 speakers with Bose active equalizer (1 pair with Kenwood, 2 pairs with Technics amp). The 5.1 speakers, currently with the Onkyo, are Mirage OM Design Series. Would the tt with the Dynavector cart perhaps be better paired with a different amp? Thanks again for all your excellent suggestions and advice.
Trouble with changing the amp in order to get a theoretically optimum match, you would need to find an amp with a line level input sensitivity of around 100mV (roughly guesstimated. Can't be bothered to do the exact math on my phone) if you continue with your same cart and phono stage. Not too many of those around, I'd guess...
Be careful here. According to hifiengine, the Kenwood is rated for 100W at 4ohm, so make that around 50W at a nominal 8 ohms. That's not bad, but not top of the line either. Speakers fluctuate in their impedance with frequency, so you really want enough power and -- typically -- current delivery from your amp, with a bit of margin on top. On paper though, your Technics actually looks rather sufficient! Technics SU-V96 - Manual - Stereo Integrated Amplifier - HiFi Engine
The Nikko amp specs says it has line input sensitivity of 150mV@35 watts Technics says 17mV (150mV, IHF ‘66) Onkyo is 200mV Denon is 200mV Kenwood also is 200mV I don’t pretend to know (though I continue to learn!), but might the Technics be better than the Kenwood for this purpose? (I have no idea what the IHF ‘66 refers to, nor why the specs show two values there)
Yes, indeed, but one small error re Technics, the manual shows 100 watts @8 ohms. And the Kenwood manual states Rated power output during stereo operation “100 watts per channel minimum RMS, both channels driven, @ 8 ohms from 40 Hz to 20 kHz with no more than 0.5% total harmonic distortion. (FTC)”
Your phono preamp will deliver an output voltage to your integrated depending on the output voltage of your cart and the gain setting in the preamp. Combining 0.2mV with 57.5dB gain, nets you around 150mV in output from the phono stage. The line input sensitivity spec on your amp tells you the minimum signal strength that needs to be fed to the amp, for it to achieve its stated maximum output power. So, your Technics with 150mV input sensitivity should be a good match on paper.
If it turns out its still not up to snuff, you haven't lost anything and still can look for a better unit(s). Can't hurt to try with what you have first, though.
It seems like it should but it doesn't. When I had the BCSEII the MC section was phenomenal- dynamic, clear, clean,etc. But the MM section was disappointing with the Ortofon 2M black- sounded nice but anemic and lifeless compared to other MM phono stages.
An alternate to the piccolo is the Lounge Copla, but I believe “head amp” is generally the type. A passive option is a step up transformer, which could potentially sound even better, however you would be getting into a complicated loading scenario and be courting nuance that the rest of the system might hide from you. An adjustable head amp will allow you to get a good idea of the cart properly loaded, and give you additional flexibility if you end up with a different cart down the line.
A SUT is a passive device intended to step up the voltage coming in from the cart A head amp is an active unit, basically a pre preamp that accomplisjes the same function. Purists swear by SUTs, but they have to be chosen specifically for your cart and offer basically zero flexibility. Practical mere mortals do fine with head amps, myself included. There is another head amp you can look at - the Lounge Audio Copla. But you need to make sure your cart needs no more than 300 Ohm loading, as that's the max Copla offers.
There are plenty of SUTs that offer multiple load options and/or gain options, though generally the adjustments would be inter-related. You're right in that they all don't, and the load adjustment range is limited by the input impedance of the phono preamp. But a lot of MC phono stages have only one load and gain setting too.
For anyone interested, here are the specs for the DV Karat Ruby that I am referring to. This pre-dates the DV/Karat 23 Ruby.
