Reportedly, a Thorens TD-160 Super with Thorens (TP-16 MKII) stock arm sold for $315USD in 1985. (Pretty sure that was without cartridge.) Using one of those inflation calculators, that's $672 in today's dollars. I am not saying the new turntable isn't possibly audibly superior to that model from 1985, but the pricing, for what it is, does seem on the high side. The likely benchmark they used is the Linn LP-12, and Thorens can point to that and say look at the "value" we offer as compared to that. Too bad their outlook wasn't, "let's offer an audiophile turntable that will be an audio bargain the way our turntables were in the 60s to 80s." All that said, as the "vintage Thorens guy" I am going to order one by end of 2020 and give it a test ride. Dave
I guess if you re-start you first have to re-establish your name with high quality. In the German test it is ranked above the Luxman PD151 and Rega Planar 8. Perhaps there will be a good budget version later?
Is the arm the same one that was used on the cheaper Thorens decks that were being blown out by U.S. dealers a year or two ago? If so, doesn't seem like very good VFM to me. There is a lot of competition at the price point they are playing in. Certainly cosmetics are good.
To be fair, besides inflation you need to take into account economies of scale. Even though Ya Horng is one of the largest OEM turntable manufacturers in the world right now I doubt they are making the same number of Thorens decks that came out of their factories in the 70s or 80s. YH does make a LOT of cheaper turntables for various brand names though - Teac, Denon, Music Hall, Yamaha, Fluance, Elac, Monoprice, AT, etc.
It does look good! Interestingly the cart prototype version had a boron cantilever and SLC shaped stylus, which fits the spec’s of the AT ART9. Therefore the also tested the TD 1600 with an AT ART9, which seemed to be a match made in heaven.
I was under the impression that the new 1600 was made in Germany. Certainly not paying $3 grand for something made by Ya Horng.
Then Dave's rebuilt 160 Super looks like a way better deal at slightly more than half the price. Those decks were made in Germany and are being rebuilt here in the US - at least I know what I'm paying for. Three grand for a deck made in China by workers making close to or below our minimum wage just doesnt sound fair.
Right, the similar looking TP-90 was used on the lower cost TD 206 and TD 209. I think the TP-92 was developed for the TD 309, and is used on many of their upper end decks now. The TP-90 is just the cheaper flow down version, still a nice arm design, with the cartridge mounted almost directly to the arm tube, and no mechanical breaks in the tube, with vibration transmitted directly to the pivot block, and with a resonance control mass visco-elastically coupled to the arm tube, magnetic anti-skate control. I like that you can adjust overhang and azimuth back at the pivot block. And the pivot location and counterweight center of mass are in the same plane as the stylus, which minimizes changes in tonearm dynamics and geometry when playing real-life records. Overall, a very nice tonearm at the price (the 9" version apparently retails for under $750), I'd imagine it will see a lot of use on other decks in the future, such as Slipper's top of the line Perpetuum Ebner... but who knows, some of the recent Thoren's decks haven't been received very well in the marketplace, and have had trouble standing out in their price ranges ...
Good info. I didn't realize there were two completely different arms that looked similar. This arm isn't my cup of tea but will probably satisfy many folks. As far as how things are received, I would suspect these new decks will do better outside the U.S. That seems to have been the pattern with recent Thorens stuff. By the time things get imported here - distro margins, dealer margins, customs costs, etc. make it hard to compete at their U.S. price points. Too much competition in the U.S. market IMHO.
Chinese factories have been making very good quality electronics and speakers for years now. I haven't seen a Chinese turntable yet that I would want to buy though. It doesn't mean they aren't out there or one couldn't come to market, but nothing I would feel comfortable buying or recommending without qualification just yet.
The Well Tempered Amadeus (and other models) are made in China. That table will embarrass quite a few tables built in the US and elsewhere. Same goes for Line Magnetic amplifiers.
Not that there's anything wrong with it, but does looks like he's supplying some of the packages with Chinese tonearms now ...
Probably because Jelco is now kaput, and he had to scramble for an acceptable replacement. I bought two Jelco arms the minute I heard the news of Jelco's demise.
It's not China itself I have an issue with - most of my gear is made in China at factories owned by the Western brands. But Ya Horng is not that, but rather an OEM factory churning out entry level decks by the thousands. I simply doubt they have the necessary level of QC. Fremer recently reviewed their (Thorens) new DD deck - he wasn't impressed with it.
Yea, I know, may just be a one-off trial too, the FFYX arm doesn't really fit the table, IMO. The newer Thorens arms like the TP-92 we are talking about above would probably be a nice fit, though may push the price up too much. He does have a super package with new motor and controller, and a new SME arm that would be a better comparison to the new Thorens, but it's priced at $3000, whereas the Thorens TD 1600 is available for under $2500. But you're right, some of the VN packages are a good deal, though the 40 year old motors and bearings have to be factored in when comparing to new products.
Granted. Still, with that price tag, they are facing a lot of established competition, and the new design isn't proven yet. It's not the new Technics 1200 - people will not line up blindly to buy it based on trust and reputation alone.
Well, to be fair, he reviewed what Thorens termed a photoshoot deck, and it wasn't up to snuff, very stupid on their part, though not sure how much the production model would have changed the review, it did get much better reviews at some other places. His review of this TD 1600/1601 on the other hand was very favorable ... though I do agree with most that the US price is too high for the market ... Simply put: the newly reorganized Thorens’ attempt to reclaim with the TD 1600/1601 the original TD 160’s rich legacy, both mechanically and sonically is a complete success. I’d say if all you listen to is rock, you might be more satisfied with a non-suspended “snappier” sounding ‘table (emphasis on might), but if most of what you listen to is acoustically based jazz and classical and three grand is your target price point, The TD 1600/1601 should be on your radar. You’ll appreciate its sonic performance, high build quality and outstanding cosmetics.
I don't think building them in the ROC and then charging the same amount that you would pay for a table that is actually made in Germany is off to a good start. Really no different than any other company that nicked a name from a once audiophile brand hoping to ride their coattails on brand recognition IMO. I mean if they're not built in Germany what's the difference between it being owned by a German company or a CCP/ROC based company?
Observing the headshell which looks a lot like a Clearaudio headshell, I suppose that the whole tonearm could be probably built by Clearaudio
Well, there's a few arms with a similar minimal headshell design, but I'm pretty sure this is a Thorens design, I haven't seen any similar Clearaudio designs.
