I'd like to hear the original version before I made that call. Though I like Lady Friend in its current (only?) incarnation. IIRC Crosby said the original RCA studio take of 8 Miles High was better than the Columbia version but I strongly disagree with that. and then there's, ahem, 'Mind Gardens'. so for all his brilliance and incredible harmonizing, Crosby's own aesthetic judgement can be faulty
I tend to give him a bit more credit than that, but only a little. To be frank, I don't think there's that much cash left on the table for a Byrds reunion this deep into the 21st century, and I think David knows that too. Forgive me while I indulge in some armchair psychology. I think the evidence of David's public statements would indicate that he has a genuine need to make amends with the people he's wronged -- a need that tends to come into conflict with his seemingly total inability to keep his opinions to himself, or to make even the slightest effort to understand other people's needs or attitudes. I don't think there's any other plausible explanation for why he held onto the idea of touring again with Roger McGuinn when it is has been thunderingly obvious for decades to even someone as stupid as me that that was never going to happen. I'm a big Spacemen 3 fan and there's a similar dynamic happening there, where Pete Kember was a total dickhole to Jason Pierce in the '80s (and the latter no doubt returned the favor) and over the last 10 or 15 years has been talking about wanting to make amends and reunite the band. He seems completely unable to see that there is literally nothing in it for Jason. Why would Jason go through the trouble of arranging a creative collaboration with someone he has barely spoken to in 30 years just to make that person feel better about himself? So it probably is with Roger and David. Similarly, very little Pete Kember has done since Spacemen 3 suggests much of an affinity with what Jason Pierce has been doing during that period. So, again, with Roger and David. Some people have difficulty recognizing that they (or others) have different values than they did when they were younger. The way I see it, David (like Pete Kember) is trying to make amends for the big asterisk in his life story, the group of "friends" that launched him to fame and whom he will thus always be associated with. He thinks the Byrds have unfinished business because HE has unfinished business. Roger McGuinn has finished his business. Or so it seems to me.
And on the 2K CSNY reunion tour when Stephen did "Suite..." at song's end Neil really praised Steve's writing on that one.
In fairness to you, would have have predicted the "Sweethearts of the Rodeo" tour before it happened? No one saw that coming.
I don't hear much Byrds aesthetic in Hillman's subsequent work apart from carrying forward the sound of Sweetheart (which didn't sound much like the Byrds apart from McGuinn's voice). And I don't hear all that much difference between Crosby's post Byrds work and the songs Croz wrote and sang lead on with The Byrds (admittedly there were only a handful) - apart from whether or not there is a Rick 12 on the track. Gene Clark had the songwriting and lead vocal sound carry forward. McGinnis had the 12 string and lead vocal sound carry forward.
Respect for someone's work is a different thing than liking them personally. I'm sure all his former collaborators respect and admire his abilities. When McGuinn talks about firing Crosby from the Byrds, he always stresses it had nothing to do with music and was entirely about personality. And he notes that he did and still does admire Crosby's musical abilities.
I could be wrong but Melody Maker which ran the negative Gary Leads Byrds piece was at the time in competition with the N.M.E.. Both were weekly music papers in the U.K. and I preferred and read the N.M.E. I'm certain the N.M.E. ran a very pro-Byrds piece the same week as Gary Leads's hatchet job. Like I said I could be wrong, it was a long time ago.
I would say that Burrito Deluxe and Bidin' My Time on opposite ends of Hillman's post-Byrds career attest amply to his continuing interest in that sound. Similarly, Gene had his first solo album and quite a few tracks thereafter, and the others (let alone McGuinn) tend to dip into that characteristic droning strophic Byrds sound sporadically throughout the rest of their careers. I have never heard a post-Byrds Crosby track that I could imagine being recorded by the '65 Byrds.
You could slip this song into the middle of side two of The Notorious Byrd Brothers and I honestly wouldn't notice if I wasn't paying too much attention I get what you're saying, but then again, their 65 sound is just one of the band's many different sounds and styles. It's not as if George Harrison recorded many songs like Don't Bother Me after the Beatles, either
Oh yeah that Guinevere with the rhythm section is top notch. For me, that version and "Laughing" aside, very little Crosby material holds much appeal for me as Byrds fan. Which is interesting as with the exceptions of Mind Gardens (pretentious, not uninteresting but not up to snuff with the album) and Triad (dig the atmosphere but can't get past the lyrics), I love every song he did with the Byrds. Bands, man!
And yet David pretty consistently played a 12-string after he left the Byrds, which surely must have been an attempt to claim a stake in the Byrds legacy. He played a six-string in the Byrds, so the move to 12-string after the Byrds has to have been intentional.
I think Chris contributed a lot to the ‘glue’ of the band in an understated way, kind of like George in the Beatles. You know how the Traveling Wilburys had a sunny, positive feel-good Beatley vibe without actually sounding like the Beatles? It sounds like they’re friends. I think Chris brought a similar Byrds thing to Gene Clark’s first solo album, and the Flying Burrito Brothers. He adds a little honey to stick it all together. I just love the clip of FBB from 1972 playing Six Days on the Road with Chris on bass and vocals and Michael Clarke on drums. That, to me, sounds more like what the Byrds of 1972 should have/could have sounded like, than what McGuinn was up to at the time. (Not that is has to be a competition, but it’s a shame they weren’t working together.) Chris and Michael sound like the Byrds’ rhythm section, because that’s what they are, even if they’re called the Flying Burrito Brothers. Anyway I get carried away. Love those guys.
Good to know. I have done my best to avoid Crosby's post-Byrds work, although you can't avoid everything. I do find his earnest hippie singing at the end of "Ohio" to be hilarious, though.
How is it hilarious? And please don’t try to inject politics into this thread in an effort to get it shut down.
I personally can't stand Crosby without the Byrds and Young/Stills to hold him down a bit. Seems like a big full grown whiner who overstates his own importance. He is lucky to have the Clark, McGuinn, Hillman, Young and Stills to ground him and help make him famous. He is talented obviously, but comes across as a pretentious holier than thou coattail rider who doesn't realize the importance his band mates had on making him important.
Kick him when he’s up, kick him when he’s down... Not a Crosby (or Nash) fan, but he’s added to both Byrds and CSN(Y). Just not as much as he thinks. Outside of a pretty disingenuous personality, (almost a hippie version of Howard Cosell), the one thing that rubbed me the wrong way, or whatever, was Almost Cut My Hair. The title, the lyrics, were too 60s, even at the time. Could have been a song in a musical version of Mod Squad. But musically, against my better judgement, it blew me away when I saw them in ‘74.
Hmmm....not sure I agree. Ok I haven't actually heard that much post-Byrds material from him (I love If I Could Only Remember, I hate whatever CS&N I've heard), but even during the Byrds he still got to indulge his style which was totally at odds with the other Byrds' styles. Everybody's Been Burned might have been an old song, but it sounds nothing like what either McGuinn or Hillman would've brought to the band. Nobody else but him would brough Mind Gardens to the band. Renaissance Fair? Again, I can't imagine McGuinn or Hillman bringing such a hippy-dippy song to the table. Same with Dolphin's Smile too. He got to dominate Lady Friend. He got to live out his little garage rocker fantasy with Hey Joe. It seems like the only time he was held in check was when they vetoed Triad and his objection to recording Goin' Back. So I don't think he was stifled as such, just maybe McGuinn and certainly Hillman were hardly kindred spirits for him, while I suspect he was probably jealous of Gene Clark.
NBB runs less than 30 minutes - they could have included Lady Friend and/or Triad. Both could easily fit in the flow of things In fact, I don't think 'Artificial Energy' is all the great, and beginning the album with 'Going Back' works better imo, although aside from A.E. side 1 is one of the best album sides ever. "Bound To Fall" is another stunning Byrds track, even half finished. would have preferred that instead of Old John Robertson. or it'd even be cool on "Sweetheart" I wish Roger would at least concede to finishing those and partially c0mpleted tracks like Milestones (bring in Brad Meldhau to play piano) with Crosby and Hillman, cover a few Gene Clark songs like "What Is Meant Will Be", and who knows, Mr. Zimmerman might have a decent song for them. That would be a gracious coda, and a nod to all the genres they explored. They'd be making the final statement about their legacy, not us or critics or the 73 Reunion Album. Yes, they could call it 'Cleared to Land".
I think one of the biggest reasons Chris brought so little of the Byrds sound into his subsequent projects is that he so rarely played bass on subsequent projects - and that was his main contribution to their sound. Apart from the similar strains continuing in Crosby's songwriting - the main way he carried the Byrds sound forward was in his role as a brilliant harmony vocalist on Stills and Nash tunes - though enriched by being part of a 3 part rather than a 2 part blend (as Roger and Gene generally sang in unison with only Croz adding harmony in the Byrds).
I mildly resequenced this album to create a more cohesive lyrical/narrative structure, and adding the two Crosby tunes at the right places reinforces this structure. I like the album much more now, and Crosby's presence is also reinforced.
I think "Artificial Energy" is one of the best things any version of the Byrds ever did. In any case, length wasn't the issue, publishing was. In late 1965 Columbia instituted a policy that pop albums would be limited to 11 tracks, to reduce publishing fees by that percentage. Any more than 11 tracks would require executive authorization (!). There were exceptions, but generally they were just that -- Columbia only allowed 12- or 13-track pop albums under exceptional circumstances after 1965. (Think of something like Bookends that gets around the policy by having the same song in two versions.) The policy was evidently rescinded sometime in 1969 or after, as it had ceased to be necessary (production times were increasing and songs were getting longer). Other labels adopted the policy at the same time, following Capitol's lead, which (for example) is why Beach Boys albums went from 12 tracks to 11 after Pet Sounds. So it was definitely a case where if "Triad" were placed on Notorious, one of the other tracks would have to be dropped. David wanted to drop "Goin' Back," which of course would have been idiotic since it was planned as the single, and probably would not have countenanced one of his own songs being dropped to make room. He also wanted his own "Lady Friend" on the record and probably assumed at least one Hillman/McGuinn composition would be dumped to make room. The conflict was inevitable.
Don’t know whether Johnny Cash was categorized as “pop,” but Live at Folsom Prison featured 16 tracks. Dylan got a 14-song double album in 1966 and a twelfth song on John Wesley Harding.
I certainly don’t think that doing what you suggest would be a “gracious coda.” I’m happy to NOT have a half baked attempt at resurrecting the Byrds at this late date, and to let the music they made previously stand as their legacy.
Indeed, neither Cash nor Dylan were considered pop artists by Columbia. Their contracts and publishing arrangements were more similar to a jazz artist or other "adult" act.
Tangentially related to the Byrds, but wondering if anyone has ever listened to Terry Melcher's solo albums, the self-titled turtleneck/blond porn star album from 1974, or the second one from '76, Royal Flush? I had initially sort of dismissed what I'd heard from the '74 LP (I think if you search this board you may find a post in which I refer to his voice as a "warble") but recently I saw a discussion on Twitter involving MOJO's Andrew Male (whose tastes and opinions I admire), and discovered that a few folks rated his work highly. Had considered starting a thread, but my threads usually die a lonely death.
