Rush Power Windows 25 years later, what do you think?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by steeler1979, Apr 27, 2010.

  1. RichC

    RichC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Charlotte, NC
    As a teenager who only discovered Rush in the 80s, I have no issue with the albums from this decade.... In fact, there's probably some nostalgia involved in my abiding love for Presto, flaws and all. I'd also rate Signals in my own Rush Top 5. (The only "boring" song for me is "Countdown," but "Subdivisions" and "The Analog Kid" are as deeply personal to me as anything in the band's catalog.)

    Of the rest of the albums in Rush's "synth period," I'd rate them in chronological order: GUP (a dark and chilly outlier in the catalog, amazing if you're in the right mood), PW (widescreen Eighties excess at its best, and sometimes worst), and HYF (the dull bloated companion to PW, although "Time Stands Still" is a classic).

    For a long time, I was dismissive of Power Windows, although my opinion softened in the last decade due to two separate events:
    1) Seeing Rush perform half the album on the Clockwork Angels tour.... Unexpected, and hearing the PW songs in that context made me appreciate them more.
    2) Grabbing an RL pressing on vinyl. No other mastering (on CD or record) comes close. The sound is three-dimensional and absolutely HUGE. It's not dissimilar to hearing Metallica's And Justice For All on the original vinyl: The odd production choices are still present, but at least now they make sense.
     
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  2. morgan1098

    morgan1098 Forum Resident

    The Power Windows songs on Clockwork Angels were the highlight of that tour for me. Just looking at the first half of the show on the CD set, it's a total love letter to all those synth-y 80s albums:
    1. Subdivisions-Signals
    2. The Big Money-PW
    3. Force Ten-HYF
    4. Grand Designs-PW
    5. The Body Electric-GUP
    6. Territories-PW
    7. The Analog Kid-Signals

    Love it! And Middletown Dreams and Manhattan Project were also played on that tour.
     
  3. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product

    There are several things about Power Windows that are difficult for me to get into.
    The band always leans towards writing great music. Also the band tends to be above reproach from a playing perspective, so those won't generally be big issues for me.
    I don't really have any particular dislike of the eighties, I started buying albums at 12 in 1980, so it would have been a rough decade if I did lol.
    Having said that though, there was an unnatural softness to a large proportion of late eighties material, and to a small degree I think that effects Power Windows.
    I think from Grace Under Pressure through to Presto, Rush were somewhat reinventing themselves, and they did a really good job of keeping in the groove of the times, and still managing to be Rush.
    Grace Under Pressure is among my favourite Rush albums, and it has a very eighties sound and feel.
    I completely understand why many folks complain about the sound styling of albums like Presto, and a lot of the albums that came after.... weirdly, those albums don't particularly bother me. I actually like Presto, but readily acknowledge it's shortcomings.

    One thing that really is a little hard for me with Power Windows is Big Money opening up the album..... the vocal is very repetitive, and although not always a problem for me, on Big Money it is.... and I think part of that is actually Geddy's delivery... I just don't like the way he delivers that vocal, and with it being sung so many times, I find it agitating and grates on me. Perhaps I never recover from that point, and perhaps my feelings for the album come directly from that. There are very few Rush albums that don't open with an absolute Corker of a track, but Big Money, in spite of a lyrical direction I can get on board with, sends me in a bad direction, and then it takes all my effort to get back into the album.

    Listening now for a refresher, and more direct thought pattern.
    Big money - musically good, but it opens with a big splash on everything, and it is just a little much. The sections with a little less splash are more palatable for me.
    Nice atmospherics in the instrumental section. The lead break is nice, but again the reverb makes it all a little too bright.
    I find often, a nice delay or reverb on one instrument can colour the whole sound nicely, but it seems like everything has some on it, too much, and it ends up being an overload of splash for me.
    Grand Designs - this comes in nicely.
    The verse works very well. The Edge replications are a little too much, but when they step back from that a little, it works better for me.
    At certain points again, for me, we just get sections where the synths, guitars, drums and vocals are all splashing, and again it gets a little tiresome for me personally.... I don't know if it is a predetermined mindset I have towards the band, but it just doesn't sound right to me. The playing is great.
    Manhattan Project - the opening works well, but again with so much reverb/delay on that synth is just a little too much for me. Synths already have a held note kind of sound to them with these sounds, and it just feels a little much.
    Alex is playing some really nice arpeggios, but it feels like it is all washed out with the over the top kind of sound they are getting. Where you can hear everything but everything is at the bottom of a well, or something... again the playing and arrangement are excellent, but that is rarely problematic for Rush.
    Marathon - starts off really well. When the synth comes in we have a hint of that over splashy sound.... I think perhaps to some degree there is a little too much emphasis on the big splashy held guitar chords on this song, once we get into the main body of the song.
    Territories- again it opens well. The synth isn't overly splashy. The guitar has a presence rather than just an effect.

    Anyway... I am running a little short of time....
    In the long run, it's Rush, so it's a good album, but for me Peter Collins and/or the band, just got a little carried away with the effects. I love effects, don't get me wrong, but this album for me ends up being hidden underneath the effects, rather than shining on top of them.
    I know lots of folks love this album, and that's great, and that's cool, but for me it is a case of production choices smother what should be an album I love, and sadly it ends up being an album I can only handle in small doses.

    I haven't seemed to have that issue with the live versions of songs. I think that is because, for the most part, there aren't so many layers of instruments and so that cumulative reverb/delay overload probably just stays on the right side of palatable for me.

    I hope something out of all that makes sense. :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2020
  4. Chest Pains Productions

    Chest Pains Productions Forum Resident

    Location:
    Philly
    Hate it! Hated it when it came out, still hate it now. Same with GUP. They are both drowned in Synth crapola. HUGE drop off from the previous 3 albums and the rest of the catalog. Signals is the start of the boring stuff. I actually fell asleep during Countdown in 1983 at the Spectrum Philly show. What a bore fest.
     
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  5. ModernDayWarrior

    ModernDayWarrior Senior Member

    Still waiting for a 5.1 of this album...
     
  6. ModernDayWarrior

    ModernDayWarrior Senior Member

    Presto and Roll The Bones both could really benefit with a complete remix.
     
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  7. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product

    I am really hoping everything from Grace onwards get a 5.1.
    I reckon it could really do the albums a service, and the space could open up some of the albums that are a little too frequency dense.
     
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  8. walrus

    walrus Staring into nothing

    Location:
    Nashville
    I know they aren't as universally loved as the '76-81 run, but Power Windows and Hold Your Fire are perhaps the Rush albums that could most benefit from 5.1. Mixing a guitar/bass/drums power trio to surround isn't that thrilling, but all the wizardry of those mid-80's albums? The drums of "Mystic Rhythms" alone, spread out across all the channels, would be incredible.
     
  9. MagusPerde

    MagusPerde Forum Resident

    I listened to this album almost every day in the fall of 1985 driving back and forth to classes at college. I even saw them twice on that tour in 1986. It's one of those albums where familiarity breeds apathy. I liked HYF so much better than PW when it came out, but listening to them 30 some years later, Power Windows is a better album while I like certain songs better on HYF (F10, Turn the Page, Prime Mover)
     
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  10. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product

    Agree totally
     
  11. john morris

    john morris Everybody's Favorite Quadron

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Not that our studio hasn't tried. We got a response like this, "Thank you for you interest and request but the band plans to remix these albums in the near future...."

    Unfortunately the reality is this:
    1985 Power Windows DDD
    1987 Hold Your Fire DDD
    1989 Presto DDD
    1991 Roll The Bones DDD

    All done on DASH machines at 16/44.1 or 16/48.
    Those DASH tapes ain't playing.. Not now or ever.
     
  12. john morris

    john morris Everybody's Favorite Quadron

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Agreed. And PW and HYF fire being DDD projects didn't help much either. They were all done on two Sony DASH PCM 3324's. Those 1/2 DASH tapes will not play back. Sad. Maybe they will find a way in the future, but I doubt it.
     
  13. john morris

    john morris Everybody's Favorite Quadron

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Your post made me laugh.
     
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  14. robcar

    robcar Forum Resident

    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Ha! It's one of a small handful of CDs that I use as a reference to test out speakers. I think it's one of the 2 or 3 best sounding albums I've ever heard! I'd say that it's Rush best-sounding album.
     
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  15. walrus

    walrus Staring into nothing

    Location:
    Nashville
    Surely there has to be a way. Where is this info? Like, did no one ever make safety copies on another format or anything?
     
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  16. nolazep

    nolazep Burrito Enthusiast

    It's the only post-Signals album I can really listen to.
     
  17. john morris

    john morris Everybody's Favorite Quadron

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Excellent post. I think I know what the problem is or was: Alex and his guitar effect pedals. He had always used them since 1977 but he want pedal crazy as of 1985. Forget the poor mix guy, it is Alex stomping on his effect pedals that create too much chorus, compression , reverb and delay on his axe. Like you said SPLASH.
     
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  18. BSC

    BSC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Glasgow, Scotland
    In my opinion it was their last reasonably cohesive collection of songs. Yes the arrangements and sequencers were overblown and I've always thought Big Money with the exception of the outro riff a bit of a dirge. However this was for me the last time Rush made an album that didn't seem forced.....they made a few close to decent albums post this but not as good. For all their technical ability their ability to craft songs and dare I say concepts seemed to elude them going forward.

    I like early Rush, Prog Rush, new wave Rush and synth Rush of Signals up until this but after Power Windows they seemed to drift into their own world and I think they needed a really harsh strong producer to both edit their efforts and keep them focused...
     
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  19. john morris

    john morris Everybody's Favorite Quadron

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Check the orginal Power Windows, Hold Your Fire and Presto CDs. They say DDD on them. But those 4 albums 1985 - 1991 were recorded using DASH multitracks. In the industry it is common knowledge. Back in 1985 - 1991 there were only two ways to record PCM in a multitrack format.

    The Mistiubushi Pro Digi X-850 (1985)
    32 tracks of 16/44.1/48 on 1 inch Pro Digi tape.
    $156 000 USD

    The Sony PCM DASH 3324 (1982)
    24 tracks of 16/44.1/48 on 1/2 inch DASH tape.
    $150 000 USD

    The Sony PCM DASH 3348 (1988)
    48 tracks of 16/48 on 1/2 inch DASH tape.
    $250 000 USD

    Playing back 35 year old DASH tapes is difficult. Talk to any engineer who has to play back 35 year old DASH tapes. Or worse 30 year old Pro Digi tapes. The expert from Digital Resources below should explain things better.

    "...Sony DASH: This 1/4-inch format was developed by Sony and Studer made a machine for it as well. Tapes made on any of the following machines should all play on any of the other machines: Sony PCM-3202, Sony PCM-3402, andStuder D820X. This is essentially a dead format and is seriously at-risk. Resources for transfer: Richard L. Hess, Aurora, Ontario – United Archiving, Hollywood, California – Dreamhire, New York – Chicago Audio Works (312) 337 8282

    Mitsubishi Pro-Digi: This digital audio stationary head format – or should I say formats – has severe interchangeability issues among the different versions and even among different machines. It was introduced early and saw a significant amount of use. These are dead formats and are some of the most at-risk formats today. Resources for transfer: United Archiving, Hollywood, California – Dreamhire, New York – Chicago Audio Works (312) 337 8282 – Benny at Masterfonics, Nashville – Sterling Sound, New York – Holland Audio Service, Holland

    Here is an attempt to summarize the various versions and their (in)compatibility:

    The original X-80 machine had a 50 kHz sample rate. It’s tapes will play back properly on a 50 ks/s X-80, or 4% slow on a 48 ks/s X-80 or an X-86C.

    Later X-80 machines had a 48 kHz sample rate. It’s tapes will play back properly on a 48 ks/s X-80 or an X-86C. Presumably they will also play 4% fast on an original, 50 kHz X-80.

    The switchable 44.1/48 ks/s X-86 tapes will play on an X-86, X-86C, and X-86HS.

    The high-resolution (88.2/96 ks/s) X-86HS tapes will only play on that machine.

    The “radio-station” 7.5 in/s tapes made on the X-86LT will only play on that machine.

    In 2016 I had the pleasure of attempting to coax digital audio from a 1/4-inch stereo DASH tape. The client was fairly certain that it was a Sony DASH tape. It has been confirmed by United Archiving in Hollywood that it is a Mitsubishi X-80 tape.

    The first item to consider is that both the Sony DASH and the Mitsubishi 1/4-inch formats are 12-track formats. There are two utility tracks on each edge and eight main digital tracks in the centre. The positioning of the tracks appears similar in both the DASH and the X-86 format with stereo analog audio at the top. The bottom two tracks are slightly different, with the Sony DASH using the inner of that group as a control track and the outer for timecode. The Mitsubishi X-86 format is not as closely specified for the two bottom aux tracks.

    This was the tape that will not play on a Sony DASH machine. It did play on a Mitsubishi X80 machine at United Archiving in Hollywood. This is the same orientation, so the top of the tape is closest to the viewer. Note that the top area is not coherently filled with anything. The eight data tracks are clearly visible, and then at the bottom, the best I could say that a single mono cue track sometimes is visible.

    The big key here is that the cue audio is at the bottom instead of the top. The difference between cue (analog) track visibility in the two recordings is that the DASH recording is a fairly hard driving pop/soft rock recording while the X80 recording is a theatre organ with wide dynamics.

    Soundstream:
    This system was normally leased. It was a pioneering system. Contact me and I will put you in touch with someone who may be able to get your tapes transferred.


    8-Track Modular Multi-track Formats:
    In video production, the Tascam DTRS system was widely used in the 1990s. These machines, such as the DA-88, DA-98, DA-38, and others placed 8 digital audio channels on a Hi-8 video cassette. Resources for transfer: Ed Greene in Burbank can do this, please contact me and I’ll put you in touch – United Archiving, Hollywood, California – Dreamhire, New York – Live Wire Remote Recorders, Toronto (many machines) – Chace Audio in Burbank, California

    The other competing system is the Alesis ADAT. Alesis went to 20 bits while maintaining 8 tracks before Tascam came out with higher-resolution machines. These use an S-VHS video cassette. Studer’s entry into this field is in this format. Resources for transfer: United Archiving, Hollywood, California – Jim Finch, Former TASCAM Service Manager, Los Angeles, California – Dreamhire, New York – Chace Audio in Burbank, California – Crowtown Productions, Edmonton, Alberta

    In either system, the machines were locked together to provide 24, 32, or more tracks for recording. A multi-part set can be transferred to files using one machine and re-syncing the passes in a variety of ways, or by using as many machines as was originally used for recording.

    Reel-to-Reel Digital Multi-track Formats:
    Sony, Tascam, and Studer all used a common multi-track DASH format. The Sony 3348HR will play all the formats. All use 1/2-inch tape at 30 in/s. I believe that the 24-track machines can play the first 24 tracks of the 48-track tapes. Resources for transfer: United Archiving, Hollywood, California – Les Studios Piccolo, Montreal – Chace Audio, Burbank, California – Quad Studios, Nashville (Mark Greenwood) – Dreamhire, New York

    Otari and Mitsubishi used a common 1″ 30 in/s 32-track format that soon went away when Sony offered 48 tracks (The $250 K 3348)
    Resources for transfer: United Archiving, Hollywood, California – Live Wire Remote Recorders, Toronto – Quad Studios, Nashville (Mark Greenwood) – Dreamhire, New York

    Mitsubishi had an earlier 16-track 1/2″ 30 in/s format.

    3M had two digital formats 32-track 1″ and 4-track 1/2″. These ran at 45 in/s! Resources for 32-track transfer: As of 2012-04, Randy Alpert from LA found that Iron Mountain on Highland has a working 32 track 3M digital machine. Most of the others he found had bad power supplies, and I suggested that making up the required supply from an array of off-the-shelf supplies might be a solution. – River Sound, New York City – Arvato Digital Services, Germany (possibly the only all-digital transfer chain available).

    Machines are out there, and the Hollywood studios used 3348 Sony machines in film production and archiving. Let’s hope these machines are available. If you have any of these formats, I would strongly suggest transferring them while you can. The existing machines don’t get better with age...."



    I hope this hasn't overloaded members but I just wanted to express that playing back dead digital formats for machines that you can't get parts for anymore is tough. Sometimes you can transfer and sometimes you can't.

    Why no back up? Multitrack backups were common in the days of analog. Back in 1985 they didn't know digital wasn't going to last
    or that the tapes wouldn't play back or that the format would die out. Analog backups were made because analog tape would wear down with repeated tracking. Not so with digital. Often they made a digital copy which can't play either.

    Every major studio by 1986 had either 2 Sony 3324s ($300 000 USD) or 2 Mitsubishi X-850's ($312 000 USD). Many albums only exist on DASH or Prodigi tape.

    It is a popular myth that engineers and musicians hated digital. Not true. Some didn't like it. But most engineers were impresed with digital specs. And it's ease at editing. Digital multitracks were heavily used back between 1982 - 1992.

    There is analog 2 inch 24 track tape with drums on it From PW.

    PW and HYF are perfect for 5.1 mix. Rush have been doing 5.1 mixes now for over a decade and yet these 2 albums have never for a remix or a 5.1 mix. Ever wonder why?

    33/35 year old DASH tapes. I have transferred hundreds of DASH and Prodigi tapes over my 20 years working with Uncle Jack at his studio. It is rare for a digital tape that old to play back.
     
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  20. walrus

    walrus Staring into nothing

    Location:
    Nashville
    So are the multis from every DDD album from that era unplayable now? That seems...concerning. Is that why there was no 5.1 mix for Tango In The Night?
     
  21. john morris

    john morris Everybody's Favorite Quadron

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Ahhhh...I plead the 5th.
    Hey, you didn't read my 50 000 word post! LOL
    Pretty much yep. As of this year the 1 inch multitrack is 41 years old. And to find a working 3M 32 track digital recorder is next to impossible. Assuming you can get the tapes to play. There might have been an analog back up. But these get lost or stolen (don't ask!), destroyed, recorded over by accident, or even misplaced.

    Ahhh....mmmm.....Tango In The Night was done on a dinosaur. 3M’s 32-track recorder was priced at $115 000. The digital machine recorded at 16-bit, 50 kHz running on 1-inch tape and a 4-track, 1/2-inch mastering recorder.

    Both decks operated at 45 ips, offering a 30-minute record time from a 7,200-foot, 12.5-inch reel or 45-minutes from a 14-inch, 9,600-foot spool. No true 16-bit converters were available then so it combined separate 12-bit and 8-bit converters to create 16-bit performance.

    The full system was comprised of the 32-track recorder, 4-track mastering deck and a digital editing controller.
     
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  22. john morris

    john morris Everybody's Favorite Quadron

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Give Caress Of Steel a spin. A real audiophile album. Good solid bass.

    Do you use the original 1985 CD, the remastered 1997 version or another remaster? The orginal CD is just a straight digital copy. The 1997 remaster (which is still good) is not.
     
  23. walrus

    walrus Staring into nothing

    Location:
    Nashville
    I really hope someone figures this out at some point. I mean, it seems like it'd be a financially worthwhile endeavor for someone to get a machine up and running that could read these things, and convert all these multitracks to digital files...surely Rush isn't the only big-name band that used this format, and would find some value in doing so.
     
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  24. john morris

    john morris Everybody's Favorite Quadron

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Some will play and some won't. It depends on age and other factors. The problem with The Pro Digi format is that it had compatibility problems between machines and this was when the format was new and heavily used. DASH, there is a chance but Pro Digi forget it.
     
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  25. Terrapin Station

    Terrapin Station Master Guns

    Location:
    NYC Man/Joy-Z City
    I'd rate it a 5/5, but I'd probably rank it at the bottom of the 80s albums, and towards the bottom of an overall Rush list, too, if that makes sense. :D

    Attempting to rank the 80s albums, I'd probably go:

    Permanent Waves
    Signals
    Presto
    Hold Your Fire
    Moving Pictures
    Grace Under Pressure
    Power Windows
     

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