After getting acquainted with the A21 and Saga combination for a few weeks, I just installed the P5 instead of the saga. First thing that struck me was everything seems way too loud ? I can hardly get the volume at 9 o'clock on the P5 before it's way too loud...is that normal (unbalanced rca connections) ? I just turned the gain controls on the A21 down so I can have more useable volume control on the P5 ...
I found the unbalanced way too loud on my P5/A23 combo so I went with balanced, which has the perfect amount of gain and may sound a bit cleaner. I bought these and are all you need in my opinion: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074Y3F69Y/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1&fpw=alm
Balanced should be even louder (because it's +6db). Which is why I went with rca (having tried xlr first).
I haven't tried unbalanced from my P 7 to A 21, but with gain controls all the way up, set P 7 to about "40" max (out of 100) with my Silver 8 speakers for normal listening levels. Similar range when using unbalanced to my 300B amps driving Triangle Titus monitors, maybe the higher output (or is it lower?) matches the 300B amp gain / speaker sensitivity. Lucky! So I'm happy! Actually I think I lowered the setting to 36 but not a large change. It's apples and oranges tho, but things seem to 'add up' to allow the preamp settings to be very close. So in my case apples almost = oranges. Sorry, I'm not at the location but may try an experiment when I get there over Xmas/NY, I do have high quality unbalanced cables I can use to connect P 7 to the A 21 ...
Not very impressed to say the least with the P5. It's still very early and I will wait a few days, swap back to xlr and try a few different rca cables but it's very disappointing at the moment. I guess that answered my question regarding the importance of a preamp .
Important question is: Does the P5 (at whatever volume settings, but matched levels with the Saga) sound as good? Worse? Better? I use 'dB Meter' app on my iPhone (free) to measure level ... Oops, our responses 'crossed in the ether'. Sorry the P 5 seems disappointing! At $1100 (when new?) vs. $400 (current Saga+ price) sounds like the Saga(+?) is pretty amazing. Of course the P 5 has more features but if SQ is lacking ...
Yes, well I got the P5 as part of the deal when buying the A21 (more or less), so it's not that I paid good money for it. But nevertheless I was expecting a bit (actually a lot) more...will get into details in a few days after experimenting a bit more. As for features, I don't need any of them as I have outside dacs, phono stages, sub using speaker level outputs....the only feature I might use sometime on the P5 are the tone controls.
Another thing....with the tone control circuit switched on (but keeping tone settings flat) it sounds better, more dimensionality, better seperation than when the tone control circuit is out of the signal path ! Could it be that the previous owner has always listened to this preamp with tone control on, and somehow the part of the circuit that is bypassed through this setting now still needs burning in because of that, after all these years ?! Sounds completely daft to me, but I'm just looking for a reason why the tone control on/off button has such a huge impact on the sound (tone controls being flat!) ??
Another mystery! I have the P 7 but it has remote tone controls as well as remote tone on/off. I can experiment over the Xmas weeks ...! My P 7 is ... maybe 6 years or more old but I had it in storage (in a box in my home) the past 5 years! My A 21 is new, so is still breaking in. I only have about 6 hours on it, but the resolution is incredible (compared to my 300B SET amps). IIUC it takes 50 hours or something to sound its best. My limited listening so far, I do use the tone controls with bass +4 and treble +1 or so. Of course I will be experimenting and tweaking this as I go along. So far I don't hear adverse effects tone on/off WRT musicality, soundstage depth, etc.. Maybe I'm blessed with not being overly sensitive! but I do relish soundstaging, imaging, depth ... so focus on those things when evaluating the sonics. The clarity/resolution of the A 21 / Silver 8s is jaw-dropping to me. (My friend's Rowland Model 5 / Thiel 3.6 system comes to mind, I think that was the highest resolution system I had heard before this. I can't say this equals or beats it, but at least approaches it. I have some live choral recordings, need to dig those out and see if I hear the things I heard on his system many years ago ... another friend has the Meridian DSP system, need to go listen to that too!) I intend to get a lot of time on the system 12/21 - 1/4 ...! Then I have to return to CA for a month, but after 2/6 or so will be moving to ID where our new house and my system are.
my a21+ is starting to warm up the sound too much and smear detail a bit. may have to make a move, possibly go D.
That would be my first assumption. But if I were to go class D, I would consider a GaN (Gallium Arsenide) based solution. GaN offers clean high speed switching, many reviewers seem to like the sound. But it does come at a cost. Unfortunately, I don’t know of any places to demo such a unit.
Seems your at the pinnacle of diminishing returns, meaning if you want everything better than what the A21+ can offer the cost could be $5-6K. To me 85-90% of what your hearing must be coming from the preamp, especially a tube design..........Time to tube roll IMO.
It may be a combination of my preamp and the a21+. Unfortunately my preamp (to my ears) responds horribly to any other tubes than the stock ones. Bottom line synergy is not in my complete favor at the moment although the sound is often excellent. Just missing some resolution.
I don’t know if you’ve tried NOS Siemens triple mica tubes if they’re available in ones that work in your preamp. I used them with good results as driver tubes in my 300B amps. Subjectively they seem to clean up the sound a bit. Here's a chart I saved for 12AX7s, my driver tubes are 12AT7s but the sonic signature seems very similar/identical to what I hear ... including for some 12AX7s I put in my C220 preamp (Tele ribbed plates). 12AU7 Tubes in Stock $200/matched pair ... not sure which tubes in the RP7 would affect the sound the most (unless as you say, it just doesn't like other than stock tubes).
I don't know if the RP7 will respond to the Siemens triple micas positively, but I did want to add, when I got my C220 (driving my 300B SET amps) I was very happy with the sound ... except, as you, I felt there was resolution lacking. I don't recall if I had put the Siemens triple micas in my 300B amps yet, but going to the Tele ribbed plate 12AX7s (and I have to admit, a silver mains fuse also made a difference!) in the C220 brought things to decent more tolerable levels WRT perceived resolution. The C220 was the most expensive component in my system at the time (indeed, ever) ... when I later needed cash, and hadn't really had time to listen much for a while, I sold the C220. Later replaced it with my P 7 and never looked back. The P 7 MAY not quite be as organic as the C220 was? I don't really know, but the musicality and resolution are top-notch, and it has all the features I now must have (remote controls of 'everything' including fine balance). Thinking it's a preamp for life.
What is the source, digital or records? I still don't think what you describe means dbl budget on the A21+, with tube preamp you have a lot of other options to look into and to me it would be the tubes. I don't have a lot of experience with tubes, I do have a Grant Fidelity Tube DAC 11 and know I get different outcomes with different tubes.....Some are noticeably bad and others are fine whereas a couple really shine, but again we are talking 1 tube in my case. If I am getting 80-90% "sound is often excellent" and the balance is "smear detail a bit" or "missing some resolution", sounds pretty much like a win to me. Chasing that 15-20% can cost you a lot of cash and frustration and precious music listening time. Your system I am sure sounds wonderful, it's built to and now you have so much power, headroom and high current going to those speakers from that amazing Parasound PSU.........Crank it up man!!
Here's a little reconsideration of my P5...it's actually pretty good ! But as I stated before, only with the Tone Controls circuit engaged. I prefer rca between P5 and A21 over balanced (comparisons made with Wireworld Oasis in RCA and XLR version). The reason I didn't like it initially was because I was listening with tone controls out of the circuit. With Tone Controls engaged, I'm afraid the Schiit Saga will not be making a comeback. The hidden gem in this preamp imho is the internal DAC. Did some a/b comparisons with both my Denafrips Ares 2 and Arcam Irdac 2 and the P5 dac just has a sound that fits my system better. A little bit smoother but just as great soundstage and separation as the Ares 2. I really didn't see that one coming ! I haven't tried the internal phono stage yet. I have some externals to compare to so that will be another weekend well spent .
I have to agree about the DAC, that ESS Sabre dac is pretty sweet!! I had some challenges getting JRiver to work for me, once I finally got it all sorted out as first I was like mehh, but then I with some native DSD files that was pretty sweet!! I also have some 24bit hi-rez and was really liking that too........Is it enough for me to invest more money into digital nahhhh!!! But knowing I don't have to plop down $1500-$2500 for an external DAC to make me smile makes my wallet smile! I've tried the internal phono stage and its pretty good, especially the MM section. With my Delos the MC is not but with the OC9ML/II it sounded really nice.....The Delos needs to see more than 100 ohms. Good stuff!
According to Parasound, the DAC chip is a Burr-Brown PCM1798. While not top of the line, it is very competent. Every time I start browsing DACs, thinking I could do better, I throw something on through either the Coax or Optical and am like, "This sounds great! Why mess with a good thing?" I think that's Parasound's whole modus operandi: nothing thrilling or ballsy but just straight up competent. Everything is just right with the sound: tone, timing, transparency, extension, etc. It's all there. Other amps will trounce them in a few of these categories but at the expense of losing something else that will leave you cold in the end.
However, the 35db of gain for the MM sections is pretty low, especially if you're driving a low output AT VM95 series cart
Agreed that 35db is too low. The only one I could try with the phono stage at the moment is my Denon Dl110 (which I usually load at 2k as I prefer this over 47k), but gain will be way too low for the Dl110. I could try my Denon Dl103 with the MC setting but also not ideal as I like to load it higher than 100. Another positive note...I finally have a matching system....colourwise .
Wow, I hadn't thought of this WRT my P 7 (which I admit, I haven't even tried the phono ... ) I have the Denon DL-160, which is a HOMC (2mV). I guess it's the same as the DL-110 in most regards. My previous McIntosh C-220 had only an MM input, however, the max gain was 55dB, which was I guess unusual! Perfect for the 2mV cart it seemed. I cannot find (yet, not in the manual) gain specs for the P 7 nor P 5 ... but they do have MM/MC settings (altho with MC higher gain, the loading is only 100 ohms, IIUC). Depending on actual gain, possibly one could add load resistors (in an RCA-equipped housing) and use the MC input? I'm obviously not an EE nor have I tried to work this out. I guess the final load seen by the cart would still be 100 ohms ... ? Been too long since I even thought about such things. Hey, if the cart DOES see the load using external resistors, maybe the 103 could work? ANYWAY, dang! Guess I just need to get that 2M Bronze cart sooner rather than later ...
The DAC in both the OHint and Hint 6 is the same, both ESS Sabre32 Reference DAC (ES9018K2M. The Hint 6 uses Burr Brown for the volume ladder, if that is what you are referring to. Supported DAC Sampling Rates USB: up to 384 kHz / 32-bit PCM DSD Native: DSD 64, DSD 128, DSD 256 DSD over PCM (DoP) at 384 kHz
