The Grateful Thread

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by JRM, Apr 11, 2014.

  1. birdstrike

    birdstrike Flyin’ High

    Agree. Incredible in early '77 also.
     
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  2. johnnypaddock

    johnnypaddock Senior Member

    Location:
    Merrimack Valley
    This is amazing! Even more incredible is that your 9 year old found it. A job well done right there.
     
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  3. profusion

    profusion Forum Resident

    Location:
    Virginia
    The way I describe Jerry versus most of the rest of the guitar soloing world is that he mostly played phrases, not licks. I hear a few licks or patterns that recur in his playing, but very few and very rarely. Sometimes the phrases extended into paragraphs, sometimes not, but they were usually phrases and not learned patterns.

    And yes, that's definitely a horn player influence. For whatever reason, guitarists tend to fall into a practice of constructing solos from a sequence of standard practiced licks. It's hard to play pure phrases on guitar, for reasons I don't entirely understand. That doesn't happen to me when I play keyboards (badly), or even when I used to play an electronic wind instrument (also badly). The phrases just come naturally in a way they don't on guitar.

    As for Phil's playing, I had to learn enough bass to function on my own recordings, and I have no idea what the hell he's doing. It's like he never learned the "right" way to play bass by gigging in a normal R&B, country or pop band, so he was free to invent an entirely new concept for what electric bass is supposed to do. It's not even jazz. I don't know what the hell it is, but I love it!
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
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  4. johnnypaddock

    johnnypaddock Senior Member

    Location:
    Merrimack Valley
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  5. Dahabenzapple

    Dahabenzapple Forum Resident

    Location:
    Livingston NJ
    There are very few “lows” with the Dead between 68-78

    most of that is an illusion perpetrated by those unaware of the level of brilliance that the GOGD performed at for over 10 years.

    some might argue from 72-74 and maybe 69-70.

    some love 71. Some love 77. Me loves 78. I think the lowest level during the decade plus before Brent was parts of 1976 and parts of 1971.

    find me the bad performances from 69-70, 72-74 to start.
     
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  6. Dahabenzapple

    Dahabenzapple Forum Resident

    Location:
    Livingston NJ
    Phil Lesh is simply the greatest improvising electric bassist who ever lived.
     
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  7. Dahabenzapple

    Dahabenzapple Forum Resident

    Location:
    Livingston NJ
    Butch Trucks obviously was an idiot
     
  8. birdstrike

    birdstrike Flyin’ High

    36 now
     
  9. birdstrike

    birdstrike Flyin’ High

    Or jealous. Very jealous.
     
  10. profusion

    profusion Forum Resident

    Location:
    Virginia
    As entire performances, I agree. Each show has its share of miscues or (mostly vocal) mess-ups. Some shows more than others, regardless of era. That's the nature of improvising without a net. I happen to enjoy the miscues, since it's part of the lived experience they went through. Each show is a unique story of that day, that evening. The ABB's more structured approach minimized the miscues but also reduced the opportunities to discover truly new lands every night.

    I'd put Jaco Pastorius at that same level, but he obviously played in a different context. With both of them, what amazes me is their ability to engage in almost constant improvisation while still performing the proper function of the bass element. With most bassists, when they take a solo the bottom drops out and the groove essentially stops. Phil and Jaco played endless improvised lines that still sound like bass lines. I have no idea how they did that. For me, that seems way more difficult than playing a nice guitar solo.
     
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  11. GuidedByJonO)))

    GuidedByJonO))) Forum Resident

    Location:
    Evanston
    Yeah, he's clearly picking up on some good stuff.
     
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  12. GuidedByJonO)))

    GuidedByJonO))) Forum Resident

    Location:
    Evanston
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  13. Rose River Bear

    Rose River Bear Senior Member

    I agree.
    The way he smeared his lines at times was straight from horn players. And of course his most widely used trademark, the chromatic slur, was from horn players as well.
    And on the other side he could ring like a bell and hit chordal tones like a bluegrass pro when he wanted to.
    I don't use the term eclectic a lot but in the case of Jerry, he is one of the few guitar players where I think it really fits.
     
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  14. birdstrike

    birdstrike Flyin’ High

    I agree. I don't play bass but I have a background in guitar (amateur). But when I listen to Phil's baselines, I can't figure out what he's doing, why or where he's going. It's nuts. But it works. And I love it. I can't explain why it works, but it just does. The best description I've heard is the word "polyphonic." It's what makes the Grateful Dead so hard for some people to listen to, and impossible not to listen to, for others.
     
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  15. davmar77

    davmar77 I'd rather be drummin'...

    Location:
    clifton park,ny
    One of the biggest differences with phil is, as far as I know, he never listened to bass players. I don't recall hearing him ever mentioning an influence in that respect.
     
  16. profusion

    profusion Forum Resident

    Location:
    Virginia
    The interesting thing about that is that he could be that eclectic and still be 100% Jerry no matter what he was doing. There are amazing studio guitarists out there who can play any style of music perfectly, but they don't have their own musical identity. Most of the iconoclasts like Jerry were limited; he was able to bridge that gap. Of course, he played constantly and gigged every possible evening for 40 years, so that might have something to do with it.
     
  17. KeninDC

    KeninDC Hazy Cosmic Jive

    Location:
    Virginia, USA
    The ****ing cool Dead tape trader mug is also available direct from the Mad Apple Company (small business) for those of you who may want to keep Jeff Bezos out of the transaction.
     
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  18. Rose River Bear

    Rose River Bear Senior Member

    IIRC, he has over 15,000 hours of playing that is documented!
     
  19. profusion

    profusion Forum Resident

    Location:
    Virginia
    Given when he started playing and who he was hanging around with, it wouldn't surprise me if he absorbed a lot of what guys like Ron Carter and Jimmy Garrison were doing on the stand-up bass at the time. In fact, Carter also seemed to play extended phrases that didn't line up neatly as "bass patterns" but still drove the groove and contributed to the harmonic discussion.
     
  20. Rose River Bear

    Rose River Bear Senior Member

    Yep. He could not have played that well in the GD. Not with the way Phil Lesh played.
     
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  21. Rose River Bear

    Rose River Bear Senior Member

    Stay away from the root and the beat and think you are a bass vocal in a bluegrass band.
    The you will start to get close to Phil's sound.....sometimes. His lines on Friend of the Devil are an example of that.
     
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  22. davmar77

    davmar77 I'd rather be drummin'...

    Location:
    clifton park,ny
    I know the dead had a relationship with charles lloyd and I wonder how having them share a stage affected Phil and the rest like when they did shows with miles in 1970.

    Here's an interesting article I came across with lloyd.

    Charles Lloyd, a tireless jazz sax legend at 82, talks music and hanging with Bob Dylan and the Grateful Dead
     
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  23. GuidedByJonO)))

    GuidedByJonO))) Forum Resident

    Location:
    Evanston
    I just went and asked my wife where she got it and she confirmed she bought it direct from Mad Apple and it got here super fast. So another tip of the hat towards going to them direct.
     
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  24. notesofachord

    notesofachord Riding down the river in an old canoe

    Location:
    Mojave Desert
    That’s one the best posts on the thread in a while.

    Good stuff.
     
  25. US Blues

    US Blues Undermining Consensus Reality

    I believe the only bass player Phil ever mentioned as an influence was the *great* Scott LaFaro, who passed at far too young an age.
     

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