Using a double Y Cord for mono recordings

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by sberger, Jan 5, 2005.

  1. D.Beaton

    D.Beaton Active Member

    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Hi everyone,

    This is my first post on the forum - have been reading post for years now! I have a question for you all. I use the double y cord trick when listening to mono records but like others I find it a pain to unplug the output of my pre amp from my integrated amp and plug into the y cord. So I thought was being clever by splitting each channel as it comes out of the pre amp and doing the following:

    1 half each split goes into the Aux input on my Integrated Amplifier as usual for stereo playback.
    The other half of each split are combined using the y cord and then I plug the output of this into the Tuner inputs on the amp. I thought the Aux input would be in stereo and the Tuner would be mono. Both of these appear to be in Mono. Can anyone tell me why this would be? I thought I was being clever by doing this but clearly not!

    Any help greatly appreciated!
     
    qwerty likes this.
  2. Tony Plachy

    Tony Plachy Senior Member

    Location:
    Pleasantville, NY
    The only thing I can thing of is you should carefully check you cabling setup. Be sure that you did not send two right channels to the Aux and two left channels to the Tuner. I know this seems silly, but check it anyway.
     
  3. qwerty

    qwerty A resident of the SH_Forums.

    Welcome, it's always good to see a lurker turned into a poster!

    I'm not really following what you are doing with the Y cables. The easiest to do is if you have a tape monitor circuit - plug each channel of the tape in/out through the double-y, then to get mono use engage the tape monitor with the selector on the front of the amp.

    Do you have a separate phono stage, or do you plug your turntable into a phono input of your integrated amp? It could help if you let us know what amp you are using.
     
  4. Isaac K.

    Isaac K. Forum Resident

    I believe what you are talking about was something that I brought up on page 5. Another person said it would just turn both mono. I never did get around to trying it myself.
     
  5. D.Beaton

    D.Beaton Active Member

    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Hi @qwerty and @Isaac K. , thanks for the replies. I'm using a project phono box S2 and my amp is a Denon pma-450. @qwerty - if I'm following what you're saying, I should combine the outputs from the tape rec out and then that is plugged into the tape input ?

    Thanks

    Thanks
     
  6. qwerty

    qwerty A resident of the SH_Forums.

    I believe that's the way it's done.

    As you are using an external phono stage, another option would be to build a switchbox that would sit between the phono stage and the amp. A switch will select mono or stereo. There is one (maybe two) long threads on it on this site. But the tape loop is a more elegant solution.
     
  7. Tony Plachy

    Tony Plachy Senior Member

    Location:
    Pleasantville, NY
  8. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    Keep in mind that whatever you add to the audio chain is not going to be transparent. It's going to affect the sound.
     
  9. BrilliantBob

    BrilliantBob Select, process, CTRL+c, CTRL+z, ALT+v

    Location:
    Romania
  10. qwerty

    qwerty A resident of the SH_Forums.

    The two Y's would work like this (if the system will let me draw with text)
    - is the male cable end, = is the female cable end:

    (R out)..- #######................####### -..(R in)
    ..................##### - = #####
    (L out)..- #######................####### -..(L in)
    ....
     
  11. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    I just finished transferring a few mono LP with the "Y" cable mono merge method. Julie London - "Lonely Girl" was the first one and I did hear some mild ticks get even milder. Needle dropped to 24/96 digital. I'll use ClicRepair on the files as well should sound pretty spectacular. This album is even mellower than her debut. A good late night low lights affair.
     
    Stone Turntable likes this.
  12. Chemguy

    Chemguy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Western Canada
    Just discovered this thread and this technique. Hooked up my double Y.

    I think my 1951 Masterpieces by Ellington does sound better, but it always sounded great. My Lou Rawls Live from 1961 sounds good. Hard Days Night from the mono box is very nice. Paul Butterfield first album, Guitar Player label, was solid.

    I’m still looking for Holy Cow! But I’ll keep at it!
     
  13. Stone Turntable

    Stone Turntable Independent Head

    Location:
    New Mexico USA
    It really helps with slightly trashed old LPs. I think taming the noise is a more important benefit than the summing smoothing of already minty mono.

    After several years of Y-cabling I finally surrendered and just bought a switch box.
     
    Chemguy and hi_watt like this.
  14. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    A Y connector is going to affect the sound most minimally if at all, so far as besides the summed effect desired.
     
    Chemguy likes this.
  15. Chemguy

    Chemguy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Western Canada
    I’ve been listening all afternoon...I’d have to agree with you. No discernible artifacts.
     
    quicksrt likes this.
  16. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    No, it will affect the sound. No question. You're adding additional length and an extra stage. The question is whether the benefit of solidifying the image when playing early mono records outweighs the reduction in resolution. The better and higher resolving the system, the more you'll likely notice the difference. If you don't personally notice any difference, don't worry about it m
     
  17. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Length? You mean the 5 inches? The "stage" as if it's a piece of gear with adjustments.

    You'll hear anything if you want to bad enough.

    It not the VERY short length or stage which can be anything. It's merging two channels together that changes the sound. But I would tend to listen to both the merged summed mono vs. choosing either and only the L or the R chans to work with (then decide what to choose) on a project serious enough, mono mix rare enough.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2021
    Chemguy likes this.
  18. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    5"?? Yyyyyup!

    There's a reason that some speaker designers eliminate the crossover. Even the type of connector can make a difference in the sound.

    It's not like I want to hear a difference. The more resolving the system and sensitive your ears, the more every little alteration in a system makes a difference. A change in the material of a cable insulation can be heard. Amp designers do things like eliminate tone controls to create a shorter path. How much length do you think they eliminate in the path in order to achieve better sound?

    Famed audio guy/writer, Clark Johnsen, known for his book, The Wood Effect, came to a listening session of a Boston audio group and demonstrated something that astonished us. He laid a 6" piece of paper embedded with something on various components and we heard a subtle change in the sound.

    You're talking about a very low level signal coming out of the cartridge. It's a fairly fragile signal.

    I notice that you don't have your equipment listed in your profile. If you're going to comment on sound, Steve Hoffman has asked that you list your equipment.

    In any event, I understand your skepticism if you're not used to listening for it. If you're not hearing it, power to you. "Ignorance is bliss", as they say. But there's no doubt in the audio industry that anything you put in the signal path affects the sound.
     
  19. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Yes, it's the difference between having an additional few inches longer on the phono input leads or the preamp to power amp leads. Excess length is not a good thing and I do listen for changes in the sound. I'm sure I've done far more transfers to digital than the average person, or you in particular. 5" longer on the cable length is not going to be measurable in sound quality when the length is suitably short. and of good quality to begin with. I'm not talking about 4 ft. cables vs 12 ft. A four ft cable with 5" added is going to be a tough one to hear or measure differences when all connections are normal and of go0od quality.

    But there are also thousand dollar cables, some even marketed out of Boston, that some folks swear sound better than anything in the sub $100 level. Nothing can be measured, but you can trust them I'm sure.

    Again, I'm speaking of quality connections and not long leads. And I do hear a sound difference with a Y connector, the two groove walls being combined is what I near. But just as a test, I can connect only one channel of the Y connecter (not them both), and record the signal with and without that connector. That would be interesting to look at on scope and listen to as well. The degradation (if any) should show on on the graphs would not you agree? Just like $1,000 cables should show up on graphs when they (or if they) make that quite noticeable improvement.
     
    AnalogJ likes this.
  20. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    I can only say that I hear the difference. Yes, it solidifies the image and temporal quality, but rolls off the frequency extremes; and inner detail is reduced.

    I created the Y-cable from Radio Shack connectors. I'd love to find a higher end version to try. And, FYI, I have placed it between my phono stage and the preamp. (Placing it between the tonearm and phono stage was a horrible sounding).

    If you have any idea for sources for a better one to try, let me know. (Not the $35 switch that a forum member puts together). I might try calling The Cable Company (Fatwyre).
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2021
  21. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    I think I am pretty sure I recall Steve H. saying he'd performed the trick between TT and pre. or suggested it was but one way to achieve this. I've also done it that way. But I have done so few mono LPs using a Y connector, being that I only attempt it when I have major concerns with surface noise and ticks on an old mono LP. It's done by me only to drop the noise floor lower.
     
  22. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    I don't think he'd do it between the TT and pre. The signal is already so small and delicate at that stage. Your stylus barely puts out a signal. Believe me, the sound was FAR worse when I tried it there. If you're going to do it, you want to do it after the phono stage where the signal has at least been amplified.
     
  23. Tony Plachy

    Tony Plachy Senior Member

    Location:
    Pleasantville, NY
    You two guys are beating a dead horse. Do either one of you understand how electronics works? The impact of one meter of interconnect cable on signal strength is next to nothing. If there was a significant voltage drop due to one meter of interconnect cable there would be no separates in home audio gear. Only integrated amps ( phono stage, preamp and power amp all in one box) would work. The same is true of a double Y connector and whether you put it before or after the phono preamp ( unless you build your double Y out of old coat hangers ). Assuming you have your cartridge azimuth adjusted properly so that left equals right when you play a mono record then using a double why will give you a 30 % reduction in noise level. If you happen to have a separate phono stage and it has random noise between its left and right channel and you put the double Y after the phono stage then you will also get a 30% reduction of its noise. The horse is dead, quit beating it!
     
    luckyno13 likes this.
  24. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Why would you state "You guys" and then turn around and basically agree with what I stated? And if it's a dead horse, why even bother saying anything when you can let dead dogs die?

    But I am not sure about this:

    "If you happen to have a separate phono stage and it has random noise between its left and right channel and you put the double Y after the phono stage then you will also get a 30% reduction of its noise."

    Because the two walls of a groove on a mono record when summed can neutralize some ticks and surface noise alright, I am not sure any noise in an amp's L & R chans works the same way as the oposite walls of an LP groove.
     
  25. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    You are so wrong man. Either your system or ears are low resolution, or you're trolling. It's pretty easy to hear if your system is resolving enough.

    I once borrowed about a half-dozen 1m cables from The Cable Company's lending library. A few different brands as well as price points, ranging from a few hundred dollars to into four figures. They all sounded different.

    If you don't hear the difference between different cables, it ain't the cables that is the problem.
     

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