Most unexpected sound improvement

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Andy Pandy, Apr 8, 2021.

  1. bluemooze

    bluemooze Senior Member

    Location:
    Frenchtown NJ USA
    [​IMG]
     
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  2. luckybaer

    luckybaer Thinks The Devil actually beat Johnny

    Location:
    Missouri
    Maybe it was because I wasn't really expecting much, but when I swapped out an old BJC RCA cable for a relatively inexpensive AudioQuest Evergreen RCA cable, I was stunned. Bass became clearer, tighter, less flabby sounding. I also had to dial the volume down a bit.
     
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  3. Vignus

    Vignus Digital Vinylist

    Location:
    Italy
    Same for me
     
    Noel Patterson likes this.
  4. Sam

    Sam Senior Member

    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    That's too general a statement implying that ALL MM carts are inferior to any MC cart. Just not true. I'll agree that inexpensive MM carts are inferior to much more expensive MC carts, but my MM Clearaudio Charisma will more than hold its ground to many MC carts.
     
  5. Micke Lindahl

    Micke Lindahl Forum Resident

    I've always been interested in getting a vintage Sansui or Marantz amp. Couple of weeks ago I laid my hands on a Sansui AU-7900 (together with a TU-7900). Cosmetically it really is in great condition. But a bit noisy in controls and toggle switches. But that was expected.

    Hooked it up to my Monitor Audio Bronze 6 speakers and WOW! I'm overwhelmed. I did expect it to sound different from my Denon PMA2000 (which is no slouch IMHO), but this was a much bigger difference than I dared to expect. First thing that struck me was the delivery of bass. Tight as h*ll. The Denon tends to sound a bit boomy.

    I'm gonna get this piece of beauty serviced and re-capped. Not my image. Too lazy. :p

    [​IMG]
     
  6. MGW

    MGW Less travelling, more listening

    Location:
    Scotland, UK
    Will do. The new ball bearings in the suspension posts is more in the frame because I can and why not. At worst it safely stored another six years worth of main bearings.
     
  7. MGW

    MGW Less travelling, more listening

    Location:
    Scotland, UK
    You really do have to wonder about the motivation of some people who coin a discussion such as this where genuine experiences are being freely-shared only to denigrate almost all that is being said - I think that the correct term is thread crapping. To then accuse participants of selling snake oil (no one is trying to sell anything here) while illustrating really rather extraordinary lack of knowledge and critical faculty only adds to this - it should be obvious to even the most incredulous and ignorant why headshell wires and turntable bearings can and do make a substantial improvement.

    I suppose that I should not be surprised as the self same folk thread crap on every Rega discussion, dissing the quality of their products and promoting (selling) Technics products.

    I have, however, been reminded that one of my big, completely free, upgrades was to adjust the Ironwood stands for my Sonus Faber Concertos so that they sat higher (tweeter more or less at ear level). I had had the damn things for over fifteen years by that stage! (The SF Ironwood stands are adjustable for height in case you wonder how I did that.)

    Now I am off to exercise the 'Ignore' function within this forum.
     
  8. Brother_Rael

    Brother_Rael Senior Member

    Move your speakers a few inches either way. Best tweak of the lot.
     
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  9. Meehael

    Meehael Forum Resident

    Location:
    Slovenia
    $2 for silicone bumpers instead of wool mat on Rega P3 made biggest improvement when taking price into consideration. Got rid of static and gained a lot of detail.

    Another surprising improvement was removing the clamps and soldering the wires directly on the speaker drivers.

    Third one was bi-wiring, though I think thicker gauge also contributed to better sound.

    A switch from 4 Ohm to 8 Ohm on the back of my amp brought considerable improvements in dynamics with my 6 Ohm speakers.

    MCACC room calibration on my preamp got rid of standing waves and realy brought imaging and soundstage to another level. Though it sucks some life and dynamics out of music it really helps when listening at louder volumes.

    Though I don't recommend this if you don't know what you're doing, rising the BIAS a tad above recommend value on my integrated amp improved the sound by considerable margin - faster sound and more control, dynamics.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2021
    Ingenieur likes this.
  10. CatManDude

    CatManDude Forum Existent

    Location:
    Connecticut, USA
    Similar experience here. I had some Amazon Rewards points stored away so I ordered a set of AQ Golden Gates to replace a set of Seismic Audio RCA's I had between my DAC and amp. I also wasn't expecting too much, but was really pleasantly surprised at how much fuller the sound was.

    By the way, if you're looking for a good deal on AQ cables, keep an eye out on Amazon Warehouse. They frequently show up there at a fairly significant discount.
     
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  11. Mindhead1

    Mindhead1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Illinois
    Thanks for sharing this equipment list. I’m going to show this to my wife to show her how things could be.
     
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  12. Mr. Bewlay

    Mr. Bewlay It Is The Business Of The Future To Be Dangerous.

    Location:
    Denver CO
    My standard line is "Do you really want me to buy a snowmobile/dirt bike/ATV?"
     
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  13. Sterling1

    Sterling1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Louisville, KY
    Most improvement for me has not come via equipment but continuing experimentation with means to recorded music. Here's a recent experiment performed with Classic Hauser, a high dynamic range recording, on LP, CD, 24/96 FLAC Download, and Apple Music Download. Playing these, nine ways to Sunday as listed below, I had hoped the experimentation would determine what medium sounded best.



    • LP>Technics SL-1210GR/Shure V15V (SAS)>Sony TA-E9000ES Pre-Pro Phono Preamplifier input
    • 24/96 FLAC Download>Foobar2000>OPPO-205 DAC up sampling to 24/192>Sony TA-E9000ES analog input
    • 24/96 FLAC Download>Foobar2000>Creative Sound Blaster X-FI HD (for usb to S/PDIF conversion at 24/96)>TA-E9000ES optical S/PDIF input
    • Apple Music Download>iTunes>Airport Express (wi-fi to S/PDIF 16/44.1 output)>Sony TA-E9000ES optical S/PDIF input
    • Apple Music Download>iTunes>OPPO-205 DAC up sampling to 24/192>Sony TA-E9000ES analog input
    • Apple Music Download>iTunes>Creative Sound Blaster X-FI HD (for usb to S/PDIF conversion at 24/96)>TA-E9000ES optical S/PDIF input
    • Apple Music Download>Network connection to OPPO-205 DAC up sampling to 24/192>Sony TA-E9000ES analog input
    • 24/96 FLAC Download>Thumb Drive>OPPO-205 DAC up sampling to 24/192>Sony TA-E9000ES analog input
    • 24/96 FLAC Download>Network connection to OPPO-205 DAC up sampling to 24/192>Sony TA-E9000ES analog input
    • CD>OPPO-205>Sony TA-E9000ES analog input
    • CD>Rip to iTunes in ALAC>OPPO-205 DAC up sampling to 24/192>Sony TA-E9000ES analog input
    • CD>Rip to iTunes in ALAC>Airport Express (wi-fi to S/PDIF 16/44.1 output) Sony TA-E9000ES analog input
    • CD>Rip to iTunes in ALAC>Creative Sound Blaster X-FI HD (for usb to S/PDIF conversion at 24/96)>Sony TA-E9000ES optical S/PDIF input
    Conclusion: all processes yielded a satisfying listening experience, whereby tone, sound stage, and detail seemed so similar as to preclude any revelation to a particular process delivering the most compelling sound; however, three things did stand out: first, the presence of pops distracted LP pleasure, second, play of downloads via OPPO usb DAC, Drive Port, or Network connection is inconvenient, and finally, the iTunes play of the Apple Music AAC download via Airport Express to the Sony TA-E9000ES was most convenient, and sounded on par with the CD, ALAC and FLAC media. This makes me question any need for a means to music other than APPLE MUSIC. At any rate, the exercise was a fun activity on a cold and dreary weekend which has kept me indoors. Note, Apple Music to thumb drive was not tested, since it would have required purchase of the album to permit copy to thumb drive.
     
  14. PooreBoy

    PooreBoy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Lake City, TN
    I simply said that switching to MC was the one of the best choices that I've made. There was no implication, just what I've found.
    And I've owned lots of MM carts that were as expensive or more expensive than my current MC cart.
    I've owned the most expensive AT MM carts, including Grado wood bodies, Ortofon, and even a Clearaudio Virtuoso and many others. I'll just say I feel that you'd have to pay a lot more for a comparable MM cart. But that's just my opinion. Everyone should buy what they want and enjoy what they want.
    Remember, I said "for me"...not for you.
     
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  15. MTB Vince

    MTB Vince Forum Resident


    I'm going to share a couple of the mixed experiences I had with my earliest room treatment experiments. In doing so I would hope to help fellow SHFM members avoid making some common mistakes and arriving at incorrect conclusions based upon those mistakes. Please take the time to thoroughly read through and then let me know what you think.

    I've been fascinated with and actively using room acoustic treatments for 25+ years. Those earliest room treatment experiments were performed in my first dedicated listening room, a compact 15'x11'x9' space in a large older but awesome apartment I rented above a restaurant at the time. In hindsight those earliest room treatment attempts were all flawed in significant ways. This was jointly due to the sparsely available written science and anecdotal information available at the time and my degree of understanding, which was initially much more rudimentary.

    My first DIY "bass traps" sported only 2" of semi-rigid fiberglass in them with a stretchy fabric covering stapled to thin Luan plywood backs (which prevented mounting them with an air gap). In moderation these absorption panels proved to be sonically quite beneficial at the sidewall reflections of my too-narrow room back then... But when I added more of my DIY panels at the front and rear wall reflection points, the room's acoustic balance tilted in an undesirable fashion. It was as though I'd dialed the treble control counter clockwise. I wasn't happy with the result. In hindsight these gen1 DIY panels were insufficiently broadband. They were only absorbing upper-mid and high frequencies. It was this that was responsible for the unwanted tilt of the room's frequency balance but I didn't grasp the flaw in both my panel design and reasoning until years later.

    I wasn't easily discouraged though. Around the same time a different sort of treatment was coming into fashion- First in the recording arts world which would then trickle into hifi listening rooms due to the efforts of the folks at then new acoustics company RPG. I read about it first in the pages of a hifi rag and then in the latest edition of Everest's Master Acoustics Handbook and I was suitably curious. The letters of this new company's name stood for Reflection Phase Grating. RPG offered the first commercially made QRD diffusers which operate on the acoustic principal the company was named for. These devices were purported to break up image damaging reflections while retaining a room's lively acoustic. Their early 1D QRD diffuser products were very expensive and heavy, veneered 4'x2'x10" birch plywood affairs in simplistic N7 designs. These new treatments were outside both my budget and DIY skills at that point in time. However an adventurous HiFi boutique in the big city nearby was selling off several units at cost after briefly (and unsuccessfully) trying them in their listening rooms. Even at dealer cost they were very expensive for me. I over extended my credit card buying three units knowing Kraft Dinner would be a staple of my diet for the foreseeable future but confident these new diffusers would work sonic miracles in the tight quarters of my dedicated room...

    Well my latest-greatest acquisition proved to be a very expensive bust. A 10" deep RPG unit placed at the primary reflection point of each sidewall a few feet from their adjacent speaker audibly did "something" but it clearly wasn't a net benefit. My preexisting DIY absorption panel at a tiny fraction of the price worked much better! Placing all three diffuser units along the rear wall about 3' behind the MLP ( Main Listening Position) imparted an odd hollow and "wiry" coloration through the entire human voice range. Alternatively placing all three in front of the french doors at the front of my room, 4' behind the loudspeakers, had much the same effect, perhaps to a lesser degree but the imaging became vague. WTF??? Totally bummed out (and sick of eating sh*tty mac & cheese), I sold the diffusers and took a 50% loss. Fifteen years later I revisited diffusers. By that point the internet proved a tremendous resource and after much reading and re-reading I discovered the multiple reasons for my failed diffusion experiment. The 9-1/2" maximum well depth and wide wells of the simple N7 design would have restricted these early diffuser's scattering bandwidth to the midrange (400-2,500Hz). That particular design didn't even operate in the frequency region we perceive as creating a spacious and airy sound! Next a reflection phase grating diffuser requires distance to perform it's magic. Neither sound source nor listener should be placed in the diffuser's "nearfield". Walk up close to a QRD diffuser and speak into it and you'll understand why. Your voice will sound hollow, wiry, and just plain weird. The best practice recommendation is that the MLP should be a minimum of three wavelengths distant based upon the diffuser's lowest operational design frequency. Well the 9-1/2" well depth of those RPG diffusers made for a minimum distance requirement of about 6 feet. I was sitting about 3 feet away. Doooh!!!

    The moral in my acoustic treatment misstep stories: The devil is in the details! An imperfect understanding resulting will very likely lead to an imperfect and sonically disappointing result. If you have a smallish listening room, even much improved modern QRD diffuser designs will be difficult or even impossible to implement correctly. The alternative acoustic treatment, broadband panel traps can provide an excellent solution provided that they are implemented correctly. As a general rule, stay away from cheap spongy foam "bass traps" in all forms. Purchase absorptive panel treatment made from semi-rigid fibrous fiberglass, mineral, organic, or synthetic polyester wool in a minimum of a 4" open backed mounted depth. Even a 4" deep trap is often misrepresented as being a "bass trap". Placed flat to the wall a 4" depth trap only reaches down through the mid-range! For comparison a 6" mounting depth broadband panel mounted flat to the wall will offer functional absorption into the actual upper bass. So deeper is better but a 4" depth primary reflection trap won't tip your room's acoustic balance towards sounding dead when applied at all wall and ceiling primary reflection points.

    Hopefully adventurous SHFM members curious about room acoustics can benefit from my past mistakes and cut straight to workable and properly applicable room treatment solutions. If you are curious as to the value and efficacy of room acoustic treatments (As soon as we are all safely inoculated against Covid) and live in my neck of woods, I'll be happy to host demos of an effectively treated room for forum members in the Southern Ontario Canada/Golden Horseshoe region. In the meantime, be well and happy listening.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2021
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  16. Sterling1

    Sterling1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Louisville, KY
    Indeed, all we have that's reliable are our experiences with concepts to get impressions for preferences.
     
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  17. Mr.Sign

    Mr.Sign Forum Resident

    Location:
    Germany
    You could use compound plate resonators to avoid overdamping the mid and high frequenzy range.
     
  18. Randoms

    Randoms Aerie Faerie Nonsense

    Location:
    UK
    Even copper ones, changing from crimped to soldered. Any connection at low level, especially MC will result in some loss. This is why removable headshells, whilst offering convenience for some, compromise the ultimate performance.

    Some manufacturers go to the lengths of having flying leads from cartridges to remove more connections.

    [​IMG]

    As part of my annual spring cleaning, simply removing and re-fitting cartridge tags was a free upgrade.
     
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  19. mkane

    mkane Strictly Analog

    Location:
    Auburn CA
    Signal tube change on our HK Citation II. Crackle's gone.
     
  20. MTB Vince

    MTB Vince Forum Resident

    Sure you could @Mr.Sign. if you were primarily interested in low (modal) frequency treatment, products like RPG's Modex Plate offer impressive performance for how little space they occupy. However In my post I had not even brought up products that addressed this part of the frequency range. What advice I was passing along dealt more with effective control of mid and high frequency reverberation times and improvements of the stereophonic aspects of sound reproduction in domestic environments.

    Returning to your suggestion for "authentic" bass traps, the Modex Plate is mighty expensive and a built-to-order product in North America. For example last Fall I actually attempted to order several units here in Canada to augment my existing ASC Tube Trap low frequency treatment without impacting mid and high frequency reverberation times. I was quoted a minimum order requirement of four units at a shipped price exceeding $2000/unit. More expensive even than the four unit 16"x36" Isothermal Tube Trap purchase I had recently made. While I wasn't put off by the price of either, they certainly aren't products aimed at room acoustic treatment neophytes- LOL! If we want to discuss budget-conscious modal frequency treatment, then I typically recommend DIY and floor-to-ceiling StudioTips Superchunk corner traps. If your room is already adequately damped at mid and high frequencies, A Superchunk can be bandwidth-limited to just absorb bass frequencies by simple means. Just apply heavy plastic drop sheeting or a double layer of butcher's paper to the exposed face of the trap beneath the decorative fabric upholstery. Now mid and high frequencies will reflect back into the room. Not interested in DIY? The folks at GIK Acoustics make the reasonably priced Soffit Trap which can ne ordered with a bandwidth limiter feature.
     
  21. doctor fuse

    doctor fuse Forum Resident

    I raised my speaker cables off the floor last night and the stereo sounded amazing. I am not saying raising the cables made the system sound amazing. And I am not saying I didn't have expectation bias.
    But I will try to keep the cables raised now.
     
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  22. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Forum Resident

    Location:
    South Bend, IN
    What you're saying is that you enjoyed your system last night :D And that's all that matters - it's your experience that matters, and I enjoy reading when people have sublime moments with their stereos. Win. Win.
     
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  23. Khorn

    Khorn Dynagrunt Obversarian

    How high off the floor and how long a run?
     
  24. doctor fuse

    doctor fuse Forum Resident

    A few inches (4-6"?) from the amp for the 5' left speaker cable, the 12' right cable is a few inches for the first 6 feet, then about three feet high for the next 6 feet. Just how they could be conveniently raised.
    It was a fun tweak to try. And yes, I am aware that I was just enjoying my system. Cleaning and working my balance pot about 30 times probably made the most improvement last night.
     
  25. Mr.Sign

    Mr.Sign Forum Resident

    Location:
    Germany
    Hello MTB Vince


    I made those absorbers myself out of 1mm thick steelplates glued on 100mm PU-Foam. The Boss of the Fraunhofer Institution ( technical Acoustic devision ) who develops acoustical treatment for industrial applications ( like BMW ) was so kind to explain how to do it. He himself seemed to be an audiophile. To buy these absorbers from Renz would have been much to expensive indeed (about 3000 to 5000 Euro ) , my costs where about 300 Euro.
     

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