PrimaLuna Integrated 300 vs. 400

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by DryWhiteToast, Apr 6, 2021.

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  1. Nero

    Nero Rega - Oppo - Luxman - Sonus Faber.

    Location:
    Copenhagen
    How would you decribe the difference between the Otto And the EVO 300?
     
  2. Max

    Max Forum Resident

    Location:
    Budapest
    I like both. So much so I sold the regular Oto and ordered an Oto Sig right before AN jacked the prices in February but have not received it yet.

    Anyway, PL is PP and Oto SE. PL is a much more versatile amp and can be used with a wide array of speakers, whereas Oto is sort of limited to high sensitivity ones. I had them side by side and used to switch from one to another depending on the mood, type of music I listen and the format.

    What I sometimes was missing with the Oto was the air that the records breathed with, when I listened to them through my PL with el34 tubes. The Oto is especially good for not very complicated music with vocal content whereas PL is a Jack of all trades, so to say – very simple to use and troublefree. It can be also very easily integrated into a 5.1 setup, which is one of the reasons I use Pl along with other amps.

    Anyway, I use Oto to listen to HIREZ, sacd, cds via my SA-10 Marantz and use PL for records. Frankly, I do not like Oto with records, only with digital. Why, I don’t know. Maybe it’s just me but with records the Oto seems to lack something in the upper register – my records sound kind of vailed to me.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2021
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  3. DrGoon

    DrGoon Forum Resident

    Location:
    St. Petersburg, FL
    I bought the EVO 400 integrated very recently, and it is powering Wharfedale Linton Heritage 85 speakers, which are slightly optimistically rated at 90 dB (probably closer to 89 dB) sensitivity. It's a lot more amp than these speakers need, and I suspected it might be but I didn't know for sure and also suspect these won't be the last speakers I own, and wanted the amp I got to be able to drive future speaker options. I listen mostly in triode mode, using the stock EL34s. It's probable that an EVO 300 could likewise run in triode mode with these speakers and have more than enough power for any level of comfortable listening.

    Like you, I listen to a mix of records and digital audio from a server, I am using a Music Hall MMF 5 with Hana EL cartridge through a Music Hall 1.2 phono stage. I suspect an EVO 300 would be the sensible choice if you're looking to improve your front-end soon.
     
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  4. Mo-Tech

    Mo-Tech Forum Resident

    Location:
    Estonia
    Good to hear you manage fine in Triode with higher volume levels. I have the opposite example - 8x KT88 tubes (a tiny bit more power vs EL34) and I cannot go high volume on my 85db sensitive speakers in Triode, it's audably struggling at high volumes. In Triode it's basically just around 40Wpc amp (and EVO400 is a 24Wpc amp in Triode). Well you can go to higher volumes, but you are clearly in distortion zone. Not that I need to and I listen at low to medium levels but it's around the limit I'd occasionally go to. With EVO300 I'd definitely struggle to power those speakers in Triode even at medium volume levels.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2021
  5. DrGoon

    DrGoon Forum Resident

    Location:
    St. Petersburg, FL
    That's interesting, so even with my EVO 400, 85 dB sensitivity speakers might be too much for loud levels of dynamic listening in triode mode using anything less than KT120s? Did you select KT88s for their audio signature, and if so, what brand are you using?
     
  6. DryWhiteToast

    DryWhiteToast Where's my Ativan Thread Starter

    Thanks for the feedback Dr. Goon. (If that is your real name ;-)

    I like your Music Hall....great looking TT. I also have the EL and I like it but it can also be downright mean to my less well-recorded albums. (harsh)


     
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  7. Mo-Tech

    Mo-Tech Forum Resident

    Location:
    Estonia
    Gold Lion KT88 purely for their sonic signature. I listen jazz and electronic. EL34 have that magical midrange, they barely notch the win there over everything else I've tried, but only in mids. Yet KT88 is very close on mids magic but considerably clearer and more defined bottom end and dynamic yet silkier highs that I much prefer. So the KT88 was the choice over EL34 for me. I don't care about the wattage since the HP gives me enough (with that very rare example of when listening Triode very loud as I stated above - it's rare when I do that so the amp is workig at proper optimum sweet zone - not underscaled or overscaled, so I'm a happy HP owner).

    For KT88 I later swapped Brimar 12au7 long plates to Psvane 12au7-S models, those fixed the superiority of KT88 over EL34 for me, everything got even better. For me those tubes make a superb "sonic heaven" combination in HP/400 model.
     
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  8. DrGoon

    DrGoon Forum Resident

    Location:
    St. Petersburg, FL
    That sounds great. I'm going to stick with the stock EL34s until the amp and stock tubes are properly bedded in before I start swapping things around, but I'll explore KT88s for certain. I have an assortment of KT88s from prior amps, but not an octet. Gold Lions look quite reasonably priced.
     
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  9. thegage

    thegage Forum Currency Nerd

    Tubes are, to say the least, very much a matter of taste. I’ve had the stock EL34s in my PL amps, various current production EL34, as well as KT88, NOS Winged C 6550, and KT150. The ones that do it for me in my setup are NOS RFT EL34. Surprisingly great bass, that EL34 midrange, and closing in on the detail of a KT88 or 150.

    JohnK
     
  10. John Moschella

    John Moschella Senior Member

    Location:
    Christiansburg, VA
    So were the Brimar tubes vintage or new production?
     
  11. Mo-Tech

    Mo-Tech Forum Resident

    Location:
    Estonia
    Vintage NOS. The "highly regarded" rather expensive long plates. They are not bad but IMO not worth the hype.

    I was very surprised how much better balanced and additional subtle detail the new production Psvane were compared to them (after rather long burn in period they require though).
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2021
  12. DryWhiteToast

    DryWhiteToast Where's my Ativan Thread Starter

    Please keep this going guys.
    I know it has gone off on a bit of a tangent and I love that.
    I am usually the tangent creator. If and when, I will save these comments for tube rolling etc.

    Again,
    Thanks to everyone.

    Take Care
     
  13. Classic Car Guy

    Classic Car Guy - Touch the Face of God -

    Location:
    Northwest, USA
    Oh come one bro. Its been a year now. Pull that trigger..! [​IMG]
     
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  14. John Moschella

    John Moschella Senior Member

    Location:
    Christiansburg, VA
    Thanks. I'll have to give the Psvanes a try. I've never been happy with any 12AU or 12AX7 new production tubes compared to vintage Tele, Mullard, RCA etc. I've heard JJ and Genelax. Anyway thanks.
     
  15. Synthfreek

    Synthfreek I’m a ray of sunshine & bastion of positivity

    I was on the fence deciding between the 300 and 400 and eventually went with the 300. The 400 has the balanced connections which I have no use for now, but eventually might be able to take advantage of in the future. On the other hand, I’m using Klipsch Cornwall speakers and the extra output is of no use. I find the EL34/KT77 THE tube for me with these speakers and 10 o’clock is about where I max out, plenty loud for anyone.

    Overall, I have been overjoyed ever since I purchased it about 6 months ago. If I had to gripe about anything it would be that controlling the volume with the remote is almost useless with speakers this sensitive. One tap in either direction makes too drastic of a volume change.
     
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  16. DryWhiteToast

    DryWhiteToast Where's my Ativan Thread Starter

    Very observant of you brother!

    I am usually a person that spends a year researching a purchase like this at the best of times.
    I have to save for a purchase as expensive as this.

    Covid through a curve ball at it all. Was planning on fall of last year to buy and yeah.
    With the vaccine roll-outs I am hoping to pull that trigger once vaccinated.
    Careful Canadian here.

    Anyways, take care and thanks for the reminder.
    Cheers

     
  17. Classic Car Guy

    Classic Car Guy - Touch the Face of God -

    Location:
    Northwest, USA
    Oh come on man. I'm just bustin' your chops... Another beautiful weekend to blast that radio! :-popcorn:
     
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  18. Sandthemall

    Sandthemall Well-Known Member

    Location:
    La Crescenta, CA
    I've the had the Evo 400 power amp for almost a year. I first tried the Dialogue Premium and was seeking more resolution. About 180 hours in and I didn't expect it to be where I wanted so I returned it to Upscale.

    The Evo sounded better right out of the gate.
    Better meaning more transparent/resolution.
    Same bass punchiness. If anything, the Dialogue seemed to have better bass weight but Evo was only a few minutes into break-in.

    The 4 tube Dialogue Premium had no trouble pushing around 88db/6ohm Salk Songtowers.
    BTW, Primaluna and Salk go together very well. El34 and transmission line bass is something special. I am not wanting for a subwoofer anymore. Would probably have preferred getting the Evo 300 looking back.

    Evo 400 resolution is a level step up from the Dialogue series.

    Running Technics 1200G with Audio Technica VM740ml/magnesium headshell to Project Phono Box RS with outboard power supply to Don Sachs preamp to Evo 400 power amp to Salk Songtowers.

    Running the Evo 400 with Tung Sol 7581A.
    I like these tubes over stock EL34. There is a slight power drop with the 7581As but bass is better, midrange just like EL34s, just a tad more sparkle up top. Also a neat blue glow.
     
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  19. haroldm

    haroldm Forum Resident

    Location:
    Staten Island, NY
    Can you describe your perceptions of the differences in sound when you input the separate preamp to your integrated and then when you replaced the integrated with the separate power amp? I have a PL Evo 400 Integrated and am considering what you did with the separate preamp but I don’t want to go with both separates and lose the headphone output as I find that superb. Would it be correct to suggest that a more notable improvement was achieved by adding the separate preamp to the integrated than was by replacing the integrated with the separate power amp? Are you aware of any negatives or concerns when running the integrated with the separate preamp? I believe using the HT input on the PL integrated doesn’t fully bypass its preamp circuitry and the signal is actually going through both preamps. Is that correct to your knowledge? Thanks.
     
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  20. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    I run PSB Image T-45's with a PL ProLogue Four (35 WPC). No power issues. I play mostly Jazz and fusion though. So, if the sound is "polite" (w/o me knowing it) - I'm fine with it. Fusion though, may be as dynamic as Rock sometimes - still no power issues, and the grunt I need is present.
     
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  21. WildPhydeaux

    WildPhydeaux Forum Resident

    When I added the Evo400 Preamp to the HT input of the Dialogue Premium HP integrated the difference was fairly dramatic in terms of wider and deeper soundstage, slightly more "real" vocals (more in-the-room sounding) and "air" or presence in the upper frequencies. It was not subtle, as the saying goes. I won't say my jaw dropped but it was quite surprising and pleasing.

    Later, swapping the Dialogue integrated out and the Evo400 power amp in, the difference was essentially nil. Note, though, that the Dialogue was well broken in (I had purchased it used) and the power amp brand new. And the preamp was only a month or so old.

    Using the EVO pair I did feel the sound improved noticeably over the next two months or so. Bass, for one, became deeper and tighter. The smooth and realistic vocals somehow gained nuance. The treble was always detailed and never edgy, but it seemingly softened somewhat, in a good way in my opinion - hard to describe without making it sound like detail loss, but there was no loss, just perhaps a slight glow. I'm crappy at description, sorry.

    As for sticking with the integrated to use as a power amp, I guess it accomplishes two things - the headphone function, which I'm told is first rate, and also as a fall back position should an outboard pre not be to your liking or enough of an improvement for the expense.

    I can't speak with authority regarding the integrateds preamp bypass. But I do recall more than one person indicating the integrated does not have a true preamp function (I assume they meant active) and that its just an attenuator. If true, to my mind, the HT inputs probably are essentially direct connections to the power amp section, which is a good thing. But I don't know this as fact.

    My take on all of this? Stick with the Evo400 integrated. Its probably in the top 5 best sounding tube integrateds at or near that price. The separates do sound slightly better, but at their price I don't think they sit as high in the list of similarly priced pre/power combinations.

    Just my opinion, mind...

    Cheers,
    Robert
     
  22. Lowgroove

    Lowgroove Forum Resident

    Location:
    Australia
    I used to run 2 mono blocks (not Prima Luna) with 4xEL34's in each. These powered 90dB speakers in a medium sized room and had more than enough power - even in triode (although I preferred UL).

    So unless you want concert level volume (or more) you don't need the 400 for power.

    I have to second this - 8 power tubes are toasty.

    I recently changed to a Luxman 590AXII - a lot of people are put off solid state class A amps because of the heat, but 8xEL34's produces more heat.
     
  23. haroldm

    haroldm Forum Resident

    Location:
    Staten Island, NY
    Robert, thanks very much for your prompt and detailed response.
     
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