The Technics SL-1200 GAE/G/GR general questions thread

I bought the 40 stylus separately from KAB (or rather packaged with the old Concorde Pro S integrated) maybe 4 years ago. At that time I’m pretty sure it was the higher compliance version that came with the Super OM series.

 

Just listened to:
Mingus: Ah Um
Hancock: Maiden Voyage
Finishing up with Chambers, Bass on Top

I can't believe how much improved it is, not bad before, just better now.
If I had to sum it up: Hi/Lo extension, dynamic range/quiet and resolution. The reverb/harmonics off of struck notes is amazing.

Older dogs seldom get excited, this one is.

0 regrets

 

KAB damper turned up in the post today. Installation was really easy, took 5-10 minutes and looks great. I’ll have a good listen tonight with some different cartridges.

 

What about the effective tonearm mass?
Some say 12 grams, others say 9 grams... looks like @Ingenieur found 4.5 grams.
From the resonance frequencies I’ve measured on my cartridge, about 7 to 9 grams seemed to produce the most accurate results.

 

So my SL1210GAE is now all set up.

I have managed to get a few hours in to listen to some records and compare it to my SL1210GR. So you can take this post as a G/GAE vs GR comparison I guess. I took listening notes each time, and compared the same tracks.

So why did I upgrade to the GAE from the GR? Probably for the worst combination of reasons - FOMO (it's a LE of 1210 units, there was 2 left in my country), the impending move to Malaysia from Japan for future 1200 series construction (sorta FOMO-related), and finally a 10% discount nudged me over the line. I actually felt pretty guilty/awful about this purchase, and the GAE sat unopened for a week while I hemmed and hawed about returning it. I felt as though I had already reached a plateau where I was very happy with running the GR, and the "unnecessary" upgrade just... felt like a poor decision.

Both TTs were/are set up almost exactly the same way, which is to say:

• Levelled, azimuth adjusted, weight checked and dialled in
• KAB tonearm trough + damper on the GR, trough only mounted on the GAE as the damper paddle has a coat of black spray paint on it and is drying (Kevin from KAB does not do a black paddle and the SL1210GAE is completely black) - this means I compared an undamped GAE to a damped GR
• Nagaoka MP-200 (1.500g tracking, 1.5 anti-skate, probably 100 hours on it) > Graham Slee Reflex Era Gold > KEF LS-50W + REL T9i (KEFs are on the first gen "official stands" which are in turn based on the FS104 Signature stands)
• Listened to the GR first, then swapped over to the GAE
• Identical volume level on the KEFs, no change to the room setup, TTs in identical location

Physical differences: GR vs GAE

• The GAE is much heavier, and is physically impressive - it reeks of quality, and the brass platter is a thing of beauty
• The GAE comes up to speed much more quickly (maybe 1 sec) and speed changes are nearly instantaneous; there is a lot more torque as the speed is maintained rock-solid even if I use a damp microfibre cloth to wipe the strobe dots - there is a significant difference to the GR, and I used to own a Linn LP12 so I chuckled internally
• The strobe dots are more precisely milled on the GAE - the GR's strobe dots fluctuate in size noticeably when illuminated by the strobe
• Neither the GR or GAE have any platter "wobble" or apparent asymmetry visually when spinning
• The Technics logo is milled (not etched, milled) into the 10mm thick aluminium top plate of the GAE, which has a very attractive brushed finish on my model
• The GR platter rings when struck with a knuckle, the GAE does not - it is clearly more inert
• The fiddly/lightweight tonearm cue lever on the GR has been replaced with a much more solid feeling unit with a lot more physical feedback - tonearm "drop time" is identical
• The legs on the GAE are significantly heavier and appear to isolate the TT more effectively - I live in a 1900 home with floating wooden floors, with the GR if I jumped in front of the TT it might skip, but the GAE is apparently completely immune to skipping
• The tonearm on the GAE appears more inert when tapping on it with a plastic ruler - a thiiiic (GR) vs a tic (GAE) sound, this is of course a completely nonscientific comparison
• The tonearm on the GAE has a "smoother" feel to it when moving it L-R, independent of whether a damper paddle was installed
• The included Technics headshell for the GAE has a faintly printed "Technics" on the end, the GR's included headshell does not

Sonic differences: GR vs GAE

• A preface - I was expecting minimal sonic differences, in this case I had negotiated with the dealer that if there was no significant difference in sound that he would take it back minus a $150 restocking fee, and there was a significant concern on my part that my downstream gear would be unable to resolve the differences between the 2 TTs
• There is a noticeable difference sonically - overall the changes are subtle, noticeable, and an improvement when stepping up to the GAE
• Bass quantity appears similar, perhaps slightly more on the GR, however the bass appears to have more "texture" on the GAE - on Paul Chamber's Bass on Top the double bass sounds more "woody" and real on the GAE, piano notes on Nick Cave's "Into My Arms" track have more differentiation in the lower registers, like someone depressed the sustain paddle a little
• The "leading edges" of transients are much clearer on the GAE - drums have more "thwack", not '"thhhwack", vocals are crisper (Billie Eilish's "xanny" and "bad guy" tracks), and saxophone notes are somehow clearer/grunti-er (John Coltrane A Love Supreme album - Verve-Acoustic Sounds release)
• Instrument separation is clearer - this is not a night/day difference, but is the single most noticeable thing IMO. On Beach House's Bloom, the first track "Myth" has a repeating 4 note motif that runs through the entire song, this is now clearly differentiated even in the most dense sections of the song, and I can hear right at the end of the track clearly now a soft metallic feedback-ish/shimmer-like sound that I did not hear before
• The soundstage on my midrange setup has now gained height and depth with the GAE, and I can pinpoint the location of each instrument easily - this is most apparent with jazz recordings; when listening to the Bill Evan's Trio Waltz for Debby album (45rpm AP release), it feels like I'm in the Village Vanguard as they play. But even more modern releases benefit - the decay on the kick drum in Lorde's "Royals" now properly feels cavernous
• Complex songs sound less congested on the GAE - I used to struggle a bit with Beach House's Devotion and Bloom on the GR - yes they sounded "good" overall, but also a little off, and I couldn't pinpoint why. I listened to both albums on the GAE and the difference was that with the GR whenever things got a bit complex the separation would get muddled and messy, on the GAE now I sat through both albums start to finish and really just... enjoyed them

TL;DR version

• I bought a GAE for the wrong reasons, approached it with a healthy dose of scepticism (even cynicism), and was to my surprise impressed - there are audible differences (improvements), and I will be keeping it

I hope this long post helps anyone in the same situation I was in - a happy GR owner, wondering if the step up to a G/GAE is worth it. It is.

 

4.5 arm
7.5 head-shell
Total 12

Most stuff I found said 12, some even quoted the service manual but never posted it.

I'll weigh the head-shell plus cartridge. If it does weigh 7.5, 9 can't be correct since eff mass for arm alone of 1.5 sounds too low?

 

Your review is greatly appreciated, you clearly spent a great deal of time and effort on it. ..But being that this is a web forum where you will (and should) read differences of opinion, I will offer mine. ..I had a GR as well, and now have a GAE. ..And neither I nor anyone in my family could hear ONE IOTA of difference b/w them when I had both on hand.. ..And I have excellent hearing and a keen sense of musical nuance. ..Just another persons experience, take it for what you will. I kept the GAE purely for the pride-of-ownership. And I sold the GR for nearly what I paid. I don't spend lavishly on cars, watches, golf, etc... ..But I do on my audio gear.

You clearly LOVE (as do I) the step up in build quality from the GR to GAE, and you want to like it (or you wouldn't have bought it), so it's entirely predictable this will influence what you hear. It doesn't matter how you resolve to NOT be influenced by expectation, it's unavoidable I believe.

If you really want to see if you can hear a difference I would urge you make needle drop recordings with each and compare them "blind". There are many excellent ADC programs available and most laptops can easily be configured to do this. ..If the differences are audible to our ears, they will surely be captured in the recordings.

Anyway, the good news is you love your new GAE. Congrats!

 

But just for reference, aren't you the one who thinks virtually all gear sounds the same? No offense, but I think I'd take adhoc's impressions over yours.

 

Nice comparison! I have a 1200GAE and also a 1210GR, my observations match yours

One other physical difference that most people don't realize - the GAE (and G?) have a light gray-smoked dustcover vs. pure clear on the GR.

 

One thing that caught my eye was that the comparison was an undamped GAE to damped GR. Per one post, the damper’s box talks of "deeper bass" and "clearer midrange", as well as "improved tracking". Thus, what it modifies might have had an impact on the comparison. Who knows to what level that may have played a factor in any difference.

 

Cartridge + head shell ~ 15 g, fluctuated between 14 and 15, settled on 15, call it 14.75
Cartridge 6.9, head shell ~ 7.9 g with screws/wire

 

definitely no offense taken. Forums aren’t for the easily offended.

I believe that sighted comparisons between gear are not particularly meaningful - biases will always affect what we hear. For listening tests to be trustworthy, they need to be controlled. When comparisons of amplifiers are controlled and blinded, people are not able to reliably distinguish.

Turntables are highly mechanical so differences are more easily heard, particularly as it relates to platter speed. But there is a limit, a point of diminishing or disappearing returns. I think that point is reached with any of Technics tables

 

Thanks for igniting my FOMO...

 

Agree to disagree. In no way would a person not be able to tell the difference between a 8w 300B SET and 400w AB Solid State amp, blind or not blind. It's just simply not true. If you couldn't distinguish between those two types of amps, then honestly, this hobby may not be for you.

Same goes for all the Technics tables. If you don't think the SL-1000R, with it's heavier, denser platter and plinth, more powerful and accurate motor, better tonearm, etc. would sound better than the 1500C or even the 1200G, then again, this hobby may not be for you. Turning the platter at the desired speed is not the only thing that impacts sound. All those other things also come into play. This doesn't mean you can't enjoy your equipment, but these blanket statements about everything sounding the same are just not true.

 

Effective mass is not the same thing as just the mass of the pieces of the tonearm. It’s a measurement of response to force, not a measurement of weight. Effective mass measurement includes the headshell, as it is part of the tonearm (it just happens to be a changeable part of this tonearm).

There is a link to a good calculator somewhere in the past hundred or two pages of this thread, which involves weighing the pieces of the tonearm and then calculating. I’ve yet to actually take this on myself, mainly because I don’t have a scale or balance that is small enough to fit under the tonearm or precise enough to get the measurements needed. Also because I have things set up sounding great and don’t want to take anything apart...

 

Using this calculator results appear to be the same if you plug in 12 or 4.5 and 7.5? No matter how you split 30 g up, 10/10/10, 30/0/0, etc., seems the same.
After looking there appears to be confusion as was stated above 8 to 9 or 12 g.

Not going to make a difference to me, it's 'green' for both, just curious.

might try to measure it
Measuring Tonearm Effective Mass- Vinyl Engine

Compliance/Effective Mass Calculator

 

It doesn’t really matter to me, either, because the range of what will work turns out to be wider than you might initially think. I just wanted to point out it’s not as simple as saying it can’t be 9 grams EM because the mass of the headshell is 7.5 grams. There is more to the measurement than the mass of the parts.

 

Google Richard Clark $10,000 Amplifier Challenge. Clark Offered a $10,000 prize to anyone who could reliably distinguish b/w two audio amplifiers. This even included the comparison of a solid state to a tube amp. An important proviso was that the amps must be linear in their operation and not driven beyond a certain distortion level. An SET amp is not engineered to be linear so it would not be included. But comparing say a McIntosh tube amp to a Krell amp would be allowed.

As for differences between two modern day Technics, Yes… Let’s agree to disagree. I firmly believe that needle drop recordings made from a Technics 1000R and a 1500c Would be indistinguishable. However, if you let people make sighted comparisons… Of course they’re going to believe the $20,000 turntable sounds better. That is predictable.

Oh, and nobody ever claimed the $10,000 prize money.

 

So I guess all those radio and broadcasting networks used the SP10 just to show it off to their radio listeners. Oh that’s right, you can’t see radio. They used it because it sounded better not to show it off.

So why not sell your Technics and get a Hanpin 1200 clone if everything is the same?

 

Using the equation on that link (translated from French) I come up with 20 gm using my cartridge.
Forgot to add the second part, lol

 

That introduces multiple variables beyond the turntables, so it’s not a reliable way to compare.

I don’t disagree that a blind listening comparison would be ideal, but how many people are possibly in a position to have a 1000R and 1500C set up in the same room, all other variables removed, with another person there to make everything happen to preserve blindness?

And, to be fair, you haven’t done this in your own GR/GAE comparison, either. Your bias toward believing only blind comparisons can be legitimate could color your impressions of the GAE and cause you not to recognize there is a difference.

 

One thing that is interesting to me is that the cartridge does not seem to usually be factored in, even though that added weight obviously must influence the effective mass.

 

I will never own a GAE so whether it's marginally better than my GR is of no importance to me. But I bet it sho' is purty!

 

It doesn’t materially matter to me, either. I’m just inclined to believe someone who gives specific descriptions of ways in which it does sound better than I am someone who gives a general “I don’t hear anything” evaluation. But I’ll never really know, because the only way to really know is to hear for oneself, and that’s just unlikely to happen for me.

Which is fine. The GR is great!

 

In the calculator I linked plus the math post both account for cartridge mass.

La = arm eff length in cm, 23
Lm = pivot to center of CW, 5.5
Ma= tube, cartridge, head shell, misc gm
Mc = CW gm , 100 gm
Ma = 6.9 (cart) + 7.5 ( head shell) + arm tube
I estimate arm tube it at 30 gm
Total ~ 45 (based on Al density and estimated dimensions)

Meff = (100 x 5.5^2)/(23^2)+ (2 + 45/3) = 22.7 gm

???