The greatest consumer cassette tape deck ever produced?*

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Cowboy Kim, Feb 3, 2017.

  1. JohnO

    JohnO Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    I just think Elcaset was the answer to a question that nobody asked.
     
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  2. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    Assuming you applied the same technological advances to Elcaset that got applied to cassette decks in the '80s - things like dbx, Dolby C, HX Pro, dual-capstan designs that kept the tape under constant tension and so forth - it would have always held a substantial fidelity advantage over cassette, since it was essentially open reel tape in a large cassette shell.

    The problem of course is, not many people had systems capable of easily resolving the difference between a high-end cassette deck and an Elcaset. And Elcaset tape would have always been substantially more-expensive than cassette tape, simply because there was so much more of it per-minute of runtime - both length and width. Even if it had taken off as a consumer format and sold relatively well, a 60 minute normal-bias Elcaset would have cost more than a 60 minute metal cassette. Yeah it would have likely provided better performance, but it would have also been much bulkier and less convienent for portable use. I mean, imagine the size of an Elcaset Walkman!

    I think it was the answer to a question people had circa 1970 - how can we make a cheaper, more convienent version of open reel tape, which at the time was the only truly high-fidelity home recording medium. Unfortunately some of the same technologies that allowed Elcaset to successfully rival open reel tape in spite of its slower runtime - Dolby, high bias tape - also allowed the compact cassette to become "good enough", and cassette was much smaller, inherently much cheaper and even more convienent, especially for portable use.
     
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  3. tmtomh

    tmtomh Forum Resident

    Great points! Not to disagree with you, but just to pose a question: it seems to me that as a practical matter cassettes achieved high-end frequency response sufficient to cover the hearing range of 99.9+% of adults who lived with the noises of industrialized societies and were over about age 25. That would leave speed stability (e.g. wow and flutter) and S/N ratio. Do you think elcaset's wider tape size and faster speed would have enabled it to achieve wow and flutter and S/N ratios higher than that of higher-end cassette decks in the golden age of the 1980s? I tend to think not, but I freely admit that's a gut feeling rather than an informed opinion. :)

    And an elcaset Walkman - what a monstrosity it would have been - but now I want to see a mockup of one!
     
  4. JohnO

    JohnO Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    Well - I had open reel and cassette in 1970, and I didn't ask! :)
     
  5. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    Elcaset would have certainly been able to achieve higher wow & flutter and especially S/N ratios than compact cassette. Also I think you over-estimate how wide and flat the frequency response of cassette was - there was quite a bit of rolloff at both ends on all but the most advanced, expensive decks, and their response curves were often kinda lumpy. Even a (comparatively) cheap Elcaset deck wouldn't have been challenged to go flat from roughly 20Hz - 20kHz. That makes a difference, even if those are the limits of your hearing. The noise was probably the most clearly-audible difference for all listeners, though.

    On the other hand, with metal tape, HX Pro and Dolby C or dbx, cassette started to get really close to functionally equaling that performance. If Elcaset had somehow managed to hang on until 1984 or so I can't see how it would have survived beyond that.

    A big problem for Elcaset by 1977 when it became widely available is that a slew of audiophiles had already bought expensive reel to reel decks. There was absolutely no incentive for them to make a lateral move to a format with similar performance, slightly more convenience and no library of pre-recorded material to purchase. If had come out closer to '72, as Boomers were assembling decent stereo systems for the first time, it might have stood a better chance as a clearly-equivalent and more convenient, possibly less-expensive alternative.
     
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  6. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    RCA had created a virtually-identical format around 1960, minus the chrome and ferrichrome tape and Dolby NR, which flopped. My assumption is that Sony and others had been eyeing that failure for a decade plus and trying to figure out how to create a needed successor to open reel tape without the inherent limitations of 8-track or cassette. They essentially borrowed the tape format itself - open reel 1/4" in a shell - and then applied mid-'70s technological advances created for cassette to it.

    The problem of course being, cassette got the same advances, and suddenly didn't sound like a dictation medium anymore. It wasn't great, but it was good enough, and cheap and convienent. People who already owned an open reel deck might spring for a cassette deck just to record tapes for the car or office. They weren't ever going to buy an Elcaset deck to replace their open reel recorder. And non-audiophiles found cassette with chrome tape and Dolby NR "good enough".

    Had Elcaset hit the market '70-'72, things might have been quite different for it. An Elcaset Walkman is a ridiculous concept, but a car deck was certainly do-able.
     
  7. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    (FWIW, I've always coveted Elcaset decks since I first read about them in the '90s. It seemed like the best of both worlds - reel to reel performance but compact and convienent. It just missed any window of opportunity by about 5 years.)
     
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  8. JohnO

    JohnO Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    I have one of those machines. Nobody needed that either although it later found a purpose in school language labs.

    The Elcaset blanks were ridiculously expensive, and that did not help.
     
  9. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    Oh true about Elcaset being expensive - it never sold in the quantities needed to support mass manufacture, which would certainly have lowered prices quite a bit. Chicken and egg problem.
     
  10. tmtomh

    tmtomh Forum Resident

    Makes sense - I'm persuaded. Thanks!
     
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  11. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    One other thing Elcaset would have had going for it, had it come out sooner - high-quality pre-recorded tapes. Presumably it could have been duplicated in much the same way open reel tapes were already being duplicated, and those were by-far often the highest-fidelity pre-recorded music available to home consumers in the '70s and early '80s, often far surpassing what vinyl was capable of (in practice).

    Pre-recorded compact cassettes in comparison often sound like complete garbage. That got better toward the mid-'80s, when labels made at least some effort to improve their quality...but it was seldom on par with vinyl, let alone open reel.

    Of course, by '76 hardcore audiophiles with the cash already had open reel decks and often had pre-recorded tapes. So that window of opportunity had largely slammed shut.
     
  12. john morris

    john morris Everybody's Favorite Quadron

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Mmmm....Sad yes. But there was a another cassette model that recorded at both 1.87 and 3.75 ips. Or was it this model I was looking at?

    But at quarter inch (or is that half inch) it has no excuse. It is like those fantastic cars at the Pike Peaks race. One racer had a fan that sucked the car down. How about that down force?!
    Any other race the driver and his super car would be disqualified. Very interesting. Thank you.

    Let us hope and pray that some dick-wad doesn't contact a gort to complain about the thread being off topic. This is on topic.
     
  13. john morris

    john morris Everybody's Favorite Quadron

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    True. We don't really need machines going to 28 khz. But it doesn't hurt! Being linear is what we audiophiles are looking for. For example what deck would you rather have?

    Deck A: 20 - 24 000 khz +- 3db
    50 - 18 000 hz +- 1db

    Deck B: 30 - 19 000 hz +- 0.5db

    I would rather have Deck B.
     
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  14. john morris

    john morris Everybody's Favorite Quadron

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Although many people didn't seem to know many audiophiles were using VHS/BETA HI-FI decks as audio only machines. They sounded better than cassette and without all the alignment. There was always an analog alternative to cassette and clunky RTR.
     
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  15. john morris

    john morris Everybody's Favorite Quadron

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    I made $7 / hr for for North York Hydro as a security guard. (Graveyard shift) even though it cost me 6 weeks of pay I still purchased the Toshiba DX900-C ($1300 + tax). Actually I paid with my insurance check. But that is beside the point. Think big!
     
  16. john morris

    john morris Everybody's Favorite Quadron

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    From someone who lived with hours of silent 8 mm film growing up, 16mm is the only way to go.

    Uncle Jack has every original Star Wars movie on 16 mm prints.. And they still play....Sort of....
     
  17. john morris

    john morris Everybody's Favorite Quadron

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    O.k. I am a name dropper. I can't help myself.
     
  18. john morris

    john morris Everybody's Favorite Quadron

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Hold on! You would judge a seller on the background of his photo shoot? Do you think that is fair? Maybe he or she is a nice honest person. Maybe......Could be.....Never know.....
     
  19. john morris

    john morris Everybody's Favorite Quadron

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Why are you buying a 300 pound tube set?
     
  20. john morris

    john morris Everybody's Favorite Quadron

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    O.k. call me crazy but if they made the 8 track format only 4 tracks over half inch it would have been amazing. RTR quality here. Even prerecorded tapes would have been good. Any thoughts?
     
  21. john morris

    john morris Everybody's Favorite Quadron

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
  22. john morris

    john morris Everybody's Favorite Quadron

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    It's called a credit card. Unless, you maxed them all out.
     
  23. john morris

    john morris Everybody's Favorite Quadron

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    That model was made to impress. If they wanted it to catch on they would have to cut corners. That is what happened with VHS machines. The picture just got crappier and crappier as the years went on.. The tape machines may have gotten worse and not better. Still, it's all speculation now.
     
  24. john morris

    john morris Everybody's Favorite Quadron

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Little foot note on the Stephens - When it worked.

    Seriously, the major problem with all the Stephens tape machines were the sensors. It wasn't motors or heads or any other typical tape problem. These kept the reels running at the proper speed. Unfortunately John only had one installed and it routinely had problems. No one had ever built a tape machine like that before.

    Thomas Roy Baker had his 40 track machine custom modified to and I quote, "Not break down.." He had 3 sensors put in. And his Stephen mahine never broke down.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2021
  25. john morris

    john morris Everybody's Favorite Quadron

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    It has been 4 years and I still miss my kitty. She always used to sleep with me. I would put my arms around her and we would cuddle. She liked that. I felt like my daughter had died. My only child.

    I cried like a toddler when she died. Loud and intense. Shouting, "Why did my baby have to leave?!? My crying scared the vet staff for some reason. I thought she just had an infected tooth, not 3rd stage cancer. She was my best friend. My true pal. We even watched Buffy together. There will never be another Mango. Never.
     

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