When does a ‘new’ band member become a ‘real’ band member?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Ricky Lampoon, Oct 10, 2021.

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  1. Neonbeam

    Neonbeam All Art Was Once Contemporary

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    Planet Earth
    In the case of Janik Gers: When the guy he replaced returned! :biglaugh:
     
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  2. Vaughan

    Vaughan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Essex, UK
    Once they record an album and it becomes part of the canon, then they're members. However, they'll always be part of an era - in this case 2nd era - for a band. So, Dio followed Ozzy, but Ozzy was Black Sabbath MK1. Dio will always be MK2.
     
  3. Chemically altered

    Chemically altered Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ukraine in Spirit
    When the replacement contributes as much or greater than the person he replaced.
     
  4. Classicrock

    Classicrock Senior Member

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    South West, UK.
    When the band make him/her a member rather than a salaried hired hand.
     
  5. markreed

    markreed Forum Resident

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    Imber
    When the band list him as a member and he gets into the photos. Let's not overlook bands that never have their photos on the cover!
     
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  6. Say It Right

    Say It Right Not for the Hearing Impaired

    Location:
    Niagara Falls
    He's probably working on terms of a contract that stipulates exactly how much he gets paid to record and tour with them. It's probably a comfortable living arrangement.
     
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  7. CrombyMouse

    CrombyMouse Forum Resident

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    Vienna, Austria
    Tame Impala. They did not explicitly disclose that they are only a live band, while in the studio almost everything is composed and played by Kevin Parker. Are they a band then? Or not?
     
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  8. notesfrom

    notesfrom Forum Resident

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    NC USA
    It's really a case by case basis, I'd say.
     
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  9. CrombyMouse

    CrombyMouse Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vienna, Austria
    Vampire Weekend. Their last album was entirely produced by Ezra and the horde of producers and musicians. I still didn't find the evidence that Chris Baio and Chris Thompson took part in composing and recording. Yet, they played live during the tour and participated in the promotion as group members.

    Damn, this dynamics among my favorite indie bands is weird - Fleet Foxes, Wild Nothing.
     
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  10. 6stringer

    6stringer ...because it's the music that matters.

    Am I wrong in thinking that, for Pink Floyd, Roger Waters forced Rick Wright into a situation where he became a hired hand, sometime in the early 80's? But, Rick was never anything less than a full member.
     
  11. Curveboy

    Curveboy Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York City
    I disagree. I think as soon as you prove yourself either as a competent musician or have some writing ability you are in.
    KISS has had a knack for getting some great players over the decades, and I think all of them (including Mark St. John) deserve to be called members.
     
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  12. Doomster

    Doomster Forum Resident

    Location:
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    There are a lot of different ways to measure this:
    • Emotional - in fans' minds
    • Contractual - in lawyers' eyes (does one need an equity / profit share to be a "real" member, or does contracted employee, who can be fired count?)
    • Artistic - in all our ears (meaningful, even if not primary, contribution to song writing and arrangements, and studio recordings)
    • Performative - on stage (notable, or longstanding, contribution to the touring show)
    • Contextual - in our eyes (how is the individual presented and positioned by the band, label & media)
    In my view, if you're ticking some (not all) of the boxes above, I'd see no reason to withhold the respect that the term "real" implies when reflecting on a band members' designation.
     
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  13. Oatsdad

    Oatsdad Oat, Biscuits, Abbie & Mitzi: Best Dogs Ever

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    Because by 1994, they decided that "the Stones" was a set group of people, I guess, and didn't want to tamper with the public's idea of who "the Stones" were.

    Same reason the Eagles never made Steuart Smith a member, I suppose.

    I might remember incorrectly, but in the back of my wee brain, I have a memory that Jones didn't necessarily want to commit full-time to the Stones.

    Not that this means they offered him the slot as a "real Stone" but IIRC, he wanted to keep options open and not be "obligated" to stay with the Stones.

    Hopefully someone else knows the details!
     
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  14. markreed

    markreed Forum Resident

    Location:
    Imber
    As I understood it, part of it was the idea that Bill was 'irreplacable' in a permanent sense. The last time a permanent member joined the band was 1975. Maybe they just don't need to have an official bass player, even though Darryl has been in the band 28 years.
     
  15. parman

    parman Music Junkie

    Location:
    MI. NC, FL
    I think Wood was made a full member quite quickly. For some reason Mick Taylor wasn't and then he was given the boot. I'm sure there were many reasons for their decisions
     
  16. Folknik

    Folknik Forum Resident

    When they exert a dominant force in the band, sometimes taking them into a different musical direction, and it often depends on whether they were still turning out hit singles. Examples:
    Ringo Star had the personality, charisma, and special drum attack that made him much more of a Beatle than original drummer Pete Best ever was (especially since Ringo was already installed before they became famous).
    Bruce Johnston, hired to replace Brian Wilson on the road, was soon adding his harmonies, instrumental skills, songwriting, and later, production, to the Beach Boys' studio albums. Although he came and went over the years, he was well integrated into the band as a Beach Boy whenever he was there. Glen Campbell, who had replaced Brian on the road before Bruce, played on many of their sessions (most notably on Pet Sounds) but was never truly a Beach Boy.
    Clarence White had played as a session musician on some of the Byrds albums before McGuinn invited him into the band as an official member in their waning days. Many consider White an official Byrd (although David Crosby never did).
    Larry Knechtel, a long time member of the Wrecking Crew, joined Bread as a member on their 4th album and instantly became part of the band's classic line-up.
    Burton Cummings was not a founding member of the Guess Who, but was with them when they hit it big outside of Canada. He soon became the voice of the band as well as their chief songwriter. After they fired Randy Bachman (just as he was ready to quit), guitarists Greg Leskiw, Kurt Winter, and later Don McDougall were all roundly accepted as members of the band. Dominic Troiano, not so much.
    Lindsay Buckingham and Stevie Nicks weren't even close to being founding members of Fleetwood Mac, but they were the ones who majorly put the band on top 40 radio (with platinum albums).
    Michael McDonald basically changed the Doobie Brothers from a solid rock band into a blue-eyed soul band.
    When John Stewart replaced Dave Guard in the Kingston Trio, they went on almost seamlessly and were still the Kingston Trio. As for the later members who entered after the Trio's glory days were over, they weren't quite as universally accepted as members.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2021
  17. Oatsdad

    Oatsdad Oat, Biscuits, Abbie & Mitzi: Best Dogs Ever

    Location:
    Alexandria VA
    Deemed "irreplaceable" by whom? Bill? ;)

    Weren't the Stones pretty pissed Bill quit? I can't imagine they wouldn't have permanently filled his slot out of respect! :)

    I still think it was mainly a publicity thing - they didn't want to tamper with the image of "the Stones" with a new person... :shrug:
     
  18. Oatsdad

    Oatsdad Oat, Biscuits, Abbie & Mitzi: Best Dogs Ever

    Location:
    Alexandria VA
    Wood wasn't a "full member" in terms of monetary participation for years. IIRC, it took Charlie putting his foot down to get Ron on an equal level with the others. He'd been a salaried employee for a long time.

    Dunno if Taylor was full monetary participant or salaried employee, but he was presented as a Stone from Minute One.

    As was Ron. Both were treated as "real Stones" in the public eye from the start.

    BTW, Taylor quit - he wasn't fired.
     
  19. Folknik

    Folknik Forum Resident

    But wasn't that "image" already in place when they brought in Mick Taylor and Ron Wood as members?
     
  20. Oatsdad

    Oatsdad Oat, Biscuits, Abbie & Mitzi: Best Dogs Ever

    Location:
    Alexandria VA
    Sure, an image was in place but circa 1969/75, it wasn't as set in stone - ;) - as it would be by 1994.

    Back then, it was just accepted that when someone quit/left/died, you replaced them and that new musician would be a "real member" of the band.

    The Eagles replaced 2 members over 5 years before their breakup in 1980.

    Everything was way more "corporate" by the 90s.

    Lots more money involved so more protective of the image...
     
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  21. cdash99

    cdash99 Senior Member

    Location:
    Mass
    Two examples come to mind.
    • Van Halen turning into Van Hagar, then back again.
    • I’m not certain, but don’t believe that Nils Lofgren became an official E Street Band member until the 1999 reunion tour.
     
  22. Wild Horse

    Wild Horse Forum Resident

    Location:
    California
    I think Ron Wood has held the Stones back, but man, the more I learn about Charlie the cooler I think he was.

    Sad to have to type was. :(
     
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  23. Doomster

    Doomster Forum Resident

    Location:
    London
    Maybe the OP can guide.

    By ‘real’ member, does he mean someone who became a defining primary contributor (like David Gilmour, or Ian Gillen, or Bruce Dickinson) or simply someone to whom sufficient legitimacy has accrued to save them from being considered a wholly dispensable salaried stand in / session guy pulled up front?

    The latter is a much lower bar, but for me is the right one - you’d don’t need to be a dominant force to be a ‘real’ member of a band, I’d have thought.
     
  24. sixtiesstereo

    sixtiesstereo Senior Member

    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Well, he did join the band in 1965, sang on California Girls and of course Pet Sounds, which makes him
    a true member of the group. I don't think he was on a cover until Friends and then 20/20.
    [​IMG]
     
    Michael likes this.
  25. The Stones would apparently agree - Ian is listed as a member on their website.
     
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