Can I use 91% isopropyl alcohol to clean vinyl?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Veech, Oct 4, 2021.

  1. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    IX.7 TERGIKLEEN™: Commercial sold product with MSDS.

    IX.7.a A blend of two nonionic surfactants – Dow™ Tergitol™ 15-S-3 (not water soluble) and Tergitol™ 15-S-9 (water soluble). Tergitol™ 15-S-3 is a hydrocarbon emulsifier and in water can act as a defoaming agent. Not being soluble, Tergitol™ 15-S-3 has no CMC and does not act as a wetting agent. Tergikleen™ which does not foam has found some acceptance in the UK for use in ultrasonic tanks. The recommended use of 15-20 drops per gallon works out to about 1 mL and with 1-US gallon = 3786 mL the final overall concentration could be 1 mL/3786 mL = 0.00026 = 0.026% = to about 260 ppm.

    IX.7.b Assuming a 50:50 mix, at 130 ppm concentration, the Dow™ Tergitol™ 15-S-9 critical micelle concentration should be achieved lowering the surface tension of the water to about 30 dyne/cm but very little detergent micelle reserve is provided. Some of the Tergitol™ 15-S-9 will be used to keep the Tergitol™ 15-S-3 in solution. If too much Tergikleen™ is added (quantity unknown) the Tergitol™ 15-S-3 which exists as an emulsion will likely come out of solution.

    IX.7.c If using Tergikleen™ as a single application with no water rinse used at 15-20 drops per gallon should not leave a significant residue behind by itself. At an equivalent of about 260 ppm = 260 mg/L, and if 1 to 2 mL of solution dries on the surface = 0.26 to 0.52 mg can be left behind; and what is left behind will essentially be an oil. However, what is left behind will also contain diluted contaminants from the record and therefore the final residue likely to be higher. There are reports by experienced listeners that the residue left behind is audible and is reported as a ‘veil’ over the high frequency music content

    If you want to use Tergikleen as the final cleaner - you should rinse multiple times to make sure you get it all off the record. As far asbthe appropriate concentration I defer to the product directions.

    The reason I recommend a simple water soluble nonionic detergent such Tergitol 15-S-9 or Triton X100 as the final cleaner is these products are compatible with any surfactant and just about any water soluble component and rinse easily. The Tergitol 15-S-9 rinses the easiest and at 0.05% (500 ppm) also has almost 10X critical micelle concentration (where 0.05% Triton X100 is only 2.5X) so even the final cleaner has good detergency (but not as good as the Liquinox). My position is to achieve a clean record with essentially no residue from the cleaning process.
     
  2. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Just a dog looking for a home...

    Location:
    Back in PA
    ? for @pacvr

    brew for AT stylus cleaner:
    6.7 parts DI water
    1 part 70% ethyl rubbing alcohol
    ?
    About 10% net volume
     
  3. Phil Thien

    Phil Thien Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    My stylus cleaner is straight-up 91%.

    I brush the stylus dry first to get rid of easy stuff using a soft brush that came with an older Audio Technica cartridge.

    Then a couple drops of alcohol on a carbon fiber brush for a shiny diamond.

    Ortofon bonded styli are supposedly bonded with water-based epoxies. So theoretically you wouldn't want to do this with a bonded Ortofon.

    Theoretically.

    But I've actually done it with no problems.
     
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  4. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    Do not use ethyl rubbing alcohol - 0040-Ethyl-Alcohol-SDS.pdf (humco.com), the other stuff (acetone and MEK) it contains can damage the glue holding the stylus and the record.

    Just use 91% isopropyl alcohol (made in the USA) mix 9 parts DIW and 1 part IPA. That will get about 9% IPA net volume.

    Neil
     
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  5. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Just a dog looking for a home...

    Location:
    Back in PA
    That is why I asked. :righton:
    Thanks

    what is the difference between DW and DIW?
    Dissolved solids?
    After reading it seems DW is purer?
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2021
  6. lazydawg58

    lazydawg58 Know enough to know how much I don't know

    Location:
    Lillington NC
    yes
     
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  7. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    No difference - DIW is my abbreviation for Distilled/Deionized Water. In the US, distilled water is cheap and in every grocery store; overseas such as UK, distilled water is hard to come by and $$$, but deionized is easy.
     
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  8. lazydawg58

    lazydawg58 Know enough to know how much I don't know

    Location:
    Lillington NC
    Neil is this correct?
     
  9. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    I probably missed or glossed over what you said in that post, but the quantity of 10% Triton X100 to add to 128 oz to get 0.05% is calculated as follows: [(0.05)/(10)] x (128 oz) = 0.64 oz; round up to 0.7-ounces.

    The basic formula is (concentration final - 0.05%)/(concentration initial - 10%) x (final volume -128-oz) = amount of 10% to add to get 0.05%.

    Neil
     
  10. lazydawg58

    lazydawg58 Know enough to know how much I don't know

    Location:
    Lillington NC
    I'm sorry Neil, but I'm a little dense sometimes. I've got a gallon of distilled water. I've got a container of 10% concentration Triton X100. How much of that 10% concentration Triton X100 do I pour in to that gallon of distilled water, 7oz or 0.7oz?

    I've been doing 7 oz since it is a 10% concentration. I thought that would move the decimal to the left one place and give me 0.7 oz of actual triton x100?
     
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  11. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Just a dog looking for a home...

    Location:
    Back in PA
    0.7 oz x 0.1 (concentration) / 128 = 0.00055
    0.055%
    0.7 oz. of the 10% Triton

    adjust to get exactly 0.05%
    0.050 / 0.055 x 0.7 ~ 0.64 Oz.
    Actually a bit less

    @pacvr showed the derivation above
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2021
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  12. lazydawg58

    lazydawg58 Know enough to know how much I don't know

    Location:
    Lillington NC
    That just seems like such a small amount it's hard for me to wrap my head around it. So I've been using 10 times as much as I should have been doing? On other threads this is the amount that's been recommended.
     
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  13. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    To get a Triton X100 concentration of 0.05% (same as 500 ppm) in 1-gallon (128 ounces) of distilled water add 0.7 ounces of 10% Triton X100.

    You are right that 7-oz of a 10% concentration = 0.7 oz of 100% Triton X100. But 0.7-oz of 100% Triton X100 = ~0.5% (same as ~5000 ppm) in 1-gallon DIW. Try to follow - if you add 0.7-oz to 128-oz, the fraction that results is (0.7-oz) divided by (128-oz) = (0.7-oz/128-oz) = 0.00547. To convert this fraction (and resulting decimal) to percent (%) we multiple by 100%, so (0.00547)(100%) = 0.547%.
     
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  14. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Just a dog looking for a home...

    Location:
    Back in PA
    You are correct, it IS a very small amount.

    But it is also a very small concentration.
    0.05% or 0.0005 parts per 1 part of water
    Or 2000 parts of water per part of Triton.

    Since the Triton is diluted 10:1 with water you only need 200 parts water to 1 part Triton (2000/10 = 200).

    200 Oz water, 1 part diluted Triton
    128/200 x 1 = 0.64 Oz diluted Triton

    It can be confusing since the Triton is already diluted 1 part to 10 parts water, 10% or 0.001.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2021
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  15. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    Yes, it is a small amount and the amount specified by other threads is way over. There is no benefit of such a high concentration - it does not improve the cleaning and only makes rinsing that much more difficult and residue is left behind and this is often seen as gunk on the stylus. A well cleaned record should result in a stylus that accumulates only very fine dust and the occasional fiber that drops out of the air.

    However, to be sure - there is a science to this. For most water soluble surfactants there is a property called the critical micelle concentration (CMC). Paraphrased from the book: Surfactants when they are first added to water collect at the surface lowering the surface tension. There is a concentration when the surface tension will not decrease any further, and this point is known as the “critical micelle concentration” (CMC). When the surfactant concentration is greater than the CMC, the surfactant forms aggregate cylindrical and spherical type structures called “micelles”. Micelles are what provide the detergency of a surfactant.

    The CMC for Triton X100 = 189 ppm; the CMC for Tergitol 15-S-9 is 52 ppm. Ideally for detergency reserve you want the nonionic surfactant concentration at about 5-10 times the CMC. However, for final cleaning you want a low concentration to ease rinsing to get a residue free surface; so for Triton X100, I recommend only ~2.5 x CMC.

    Liquinox is a combination on anionic and nonionic surfactants. Its the anionic surfactants that are the aggressive detergents - they are the backbone of (EDIT) most liquid detergents. BUT, the CMC of anionic surfactants is much higher than nonionic surfactants so their in-use concentration is much higher.

    EDIT Without going down a rabbit-hole, disinfectant type cleaners using cationic surfactants (i.e, HEPASTAT-256) generally do not contain anionic surfactants because they are not compatible. - a sticky type paste can form.

    Hope this helps,
    Neil
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2021
  16. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Just a dog looking for a home...

    Location:
    Back in PA
    look what the mailman just dropped off

    Amazon is too easy! :)

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Just a dog looking for a home...

    Location:
    Back in PA
    You want 0.0005 (0.05%) net Triton
    0.0005 x 128 = 0.064 Oz of 100% Triton

    Since diluted 10:1 you need 10 times as much
    10 x 0.064 = 0.64 Oz. of 10% Triton

    we've killed this horse :evil:
     
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  18. lazydawg58

    lazydawg58 Know enough to know how much I don't know

    Location:
    Lillington NC
    The beating is to follow.:edthumbs:
     
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  19. lazydawg58

    lazydawg58 Know enough to know how much I don't know

    Location:
    Lillington NC
    Here's what I get out of this.

    Most of the cleaning takes place with the pre-cleaning step using the Liquinox.

    The cleaning step with the Triton is more of a clean up / follow up step dislodging anything loosened up but not completely removed from the pre-cleaning step.

    Too much Triton in basin is overkill. Once the greatest level of reduced surface tension and a reasonable level of cleaning power is achieved any greater levels have no positive affect.
     
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  20. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Just a dog looking for a home...

    Location:
    Back in PA
    Chemistry is one science I hated because I could not conceptualize it well.
    It like EE, is purely in the mind.
    I could balance the equations, reactions, etc.
    But did not comprehend the mechanism driving them.

    ion, free electrons, wth!?!? Lol

     
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  21. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    Bingo!

    Bingo!

    Bingo!

    Batting a 1000 :thumbsup:
     
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  22. RickH

    RickH Connoisseur of deep album cuts

    Location:
    Raleigh, NC
    Don’t know but it can be used to remove sap off a car windshield, according to a YouTube video. Gotta try that.
     
  23. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    Reactance and imaginary numbers drive me crazy; but for filters when the transfer function/Bodie diagram shows a capacitor going into resonance has a 60 dB peak and there is no damping resistor and all that is left is the equivalent series resistance (ESR), learned all about failing capacitors. Thankfully they were X-caps so we did not blow them up.
     
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  24. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Just a dog looking for a home...

    Location:
    Back in PA
    reactive power is a difficult concept
    Your amp may put out 10 W at 5 V but supplies 3 A.
    The amp does not care the 1 extra A is reactive.
    Still heats it up. But does no work at the load.

    One would think this only comes into play with signal level power, in fact it's much worse in HV power transmission.
    Line C will actually increase V from source to load, V rise, not drop.

    It is the primary driver of transients.
     
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  25. lazydawg58

    lazydawg58 Know enough to know how much I don't know

    Location:
    Lillington NC
    There was a reason I was a History major in college.
     
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