Your Vinyl Transfer Workflow (sharing best needledrop practices)*

mastering engineer closet games here with all the processing

 

If you only understood what mastering engineers do these days. It isn't just about making sure the levels of all the songs match.

Music is supposed to be creative. There really are no rules. It's supposed to be fun. There are no rules that say you can't do this or you can't do that.

 

iZotope products has become one of the leading professional DAWs. The tools today are vastly more powerful than they were just a few short years ago. Ozone isn't the only mastering stuff, but it is one of the best. What I picked could have been Waves or some other, but I found that iZotope products do the job I need, and do it with sonic precision. The only thing is that the programs can be CPU intensive, but newer versions are improving that. I just did an update for Ozone 9 Standard that fixes a few problems with CPU cycles I was having.

I still haven't figured everything out, but that's part of the fun for me. I love to learn new things. I consider @Stefan a guru on iZotope products. I don't know how much he uses Ozone, but it certainly fits into my workflow. I use it for just about everything now on top of using RX7 Standard.

I rarely ever document the things I do on a project. I figure once i'm done, there's no need to revisit it.

I started in 1997. I am software-based, but I started out using a DAT as the intermedium for transferring analog to the digital platform. Since 1999, my computer and analog have been combined into one unit.

It was veteran mastering engineer Barry Diament who recommended MBIT+ dither and Sample Rate Conversion. I've been using it ever since. Many engineers use POW-R these days, and some still use hardware-based solutions. It really doesn't matter as long as you get the results you want. I like to experiment to get the most transparent result possible. I rarely use noise shaping because I don't like the way it changes the timbre and frequencies. Those old arguments of digital changing the sound of the vinyl are poppycock. If you (not you, specifically) are not getting what you put in, look at your A/D converter, and your software.

 

When Sonic Foundry and Sony had Sound Forge, it used to be such a serious, no-nonsense program. But, since Magix has owned it, the interface is a joke.

I had Magix Audio Lab as a free addition to Sound Forge Studio, but it is horribly buggy, and the interface is awful! It's like some high school kid put it together after he finished his last Hot Pocket.

 

Yes, indeed. Barry was very kind to offer me that suggestion early on to improve my dubs. I'm most grateful.

 

There is one program that allows you to create your own noise shaping curve. I'd like to try it because they all tend to follow a basic pattern. I'd like to try some different curves.

 

Hi all, I have Izotope RX8 Elements (and the accompanying RX plug-ins for Audacity) with hopes to improve my digitized vinyl. I've figured out click-removal, but I need help to remove the low frequency rumble produced by my Dual 1229 idler-wheel turntable. (no, a new turntable is not an option for me).

Here's a sample clip (.wav file) with the rumble https://www.dropbox.com/s/n0uf7xb7qd02go1/Copland%20clip%20for%20turntable%20rumble.wav?dl=0

I understand the concepts but not the workflow or the interface. Step-by-step, using one- and two-syllable words, please - Ideally, I'd also like RX8 to 'learn' the noise profile of my turntable - and save that profile as a custom setting, so I can select and apply it to any audio that I capture.

I see that Izotope's De-noise plug-in for Audacity has a turntable rumble pre-set. Okay, good. But what do I do first? Or should I be using the stand-alone RX8 Elements software instead of the Audacity plug-in?

Thanks in advance.

 

I don't have the answer, but I apreciate the courage. And don't stop learning!

 

If you have the Spectral Denoise tool, try these settings. I did, and you'll have to back off a bit to avoid the dryness or artifacts, but it's a good place to start. As shown by what I named it, forum member @Stefan provided it earlier in the thread (meaning good luck finding it!).



BTW, you can get RX to learn your turntable/soundcard noise, but it's still a good idea to set parameters. There is no easy way out if you want good results. You have to experiment and test.

In that tool, there is a Rumble Reduction preset that you can also use as a starting point. But, I like Stefan's settings.

 

Sorry, but this is just beyond automation to fix optimally. You've got a very rumbly turntable (belt drive & motor noise, bearing) along with strong tonearm resonances. I would start restoration in the physical world.

Here is some of the clip, converted into mid-side mode. Left-right movement of the needle is on top, and up-down movement is on the bottom:


I've highlighted with a lighter background 0.8 seconds. You can see the correlation to platter rotation period within that, 0.55 seconds. On a normal turntable, there often can be more rumble we can remove from the side channel; here the axis doesn't matter.

At 7-20Hz is the cartridge throwing a pink fit. There's hardly any background music here at the start to excite resonance, and yet there it is.

In the top lateral, there's a strong band of noise above the deeper rumble at 80Hz, 200Hz. The top also shows a strong 120Hz line - power supply ripple. (300Hz and above is musical notes).
In the bottom vertical, we have broader noise up to that 120Hz electrical interference line.


To fix this, perhaps the best approach is a fingerprint-based noise reduction, rather than de-rumble. There are musical notes that go below 40Hz, so we must be mindful to not alter the music.

Low-frequency noise is particular, in that low frequencies is where the resolution of FFT-based noise reduction is worst. So I copy the quieter part of the clip to a new mid-side file resampled at 8000Hz to overcome that. Then using FFT passive EQ, cut out everything that is music to make a noise profile, and cut a different amount of program from mid vs side. Here's my rumble that I will profile:



Carefully tweak the thresholds so that I'm just on the edge of burbles opening up the noise gating. Then instead of "remove noise", I "keep noise" of a low-sample rate copy. Resample my noise back to 48kHz, and subtract noise from the original audio clip.

After also doing some typical side-channel de-rumble to the low frequencies, and going back to stereo, then also doing a fingerprint based hiss noise reduction mainly above 2kHz, we are now rumble-free. An 80Hz music note emerges from the rumble:


Then we just have a few of these spiky bois to take care of - dust clicks on this pretty clean recording:


Spectral view of clicks would stand out better with a high-resolution recording. Notable also is that they disappear above 12kHz, letting us know that the cartridge loading and frequency response is preventing both clear airy sound and these transients through.

Sorry, can't help you with software that simplifies things to nonsense "noisy" and "tonal" sliders...

Results: first, 10 seconds of the original, and then the clip cleaned up: Copland-clip-for-turntable-derumbled.flac (2.8MB)

What you will notice is that, for all my efforts, there's still static sound in the background heard at the start. That's the sound of the needle bouncing and gouging into the record from tonearm resonance, distortion that can't be undone, just like the distortion of stylus rake angle under these undulations.

 

@harby

@tvstrategies did say that the Dual idler wheel drive turntable he has isn't an option, so I simply gave him a place to start fixing up what he has to work with. I ideally, his first step should be to replace the table, but...

 

Hi Harby, I want to follow this but I can't even get to Step 1: where are the controls to convert from stereo to mid-side mode? In RX8, I see no menu or UI for that... I sorta track with what you describe in your screenshots, but entirely clueless to replicate it. However, I am convinced, after re-reading several times, of two things: 1) that the lion's share of NR is possible in software, and 2) that I'm actually the dog - Like this:

 

A transformation of stereo into mid-side allows us to (mostly) work independently on two signals: mono, and the stereo separation.

There are some izotope plug-ins that have this as an option, but you can remix the channels yourself. (Izotope would rather sell you a "center extract" plugin than teach you how to do it yourself, why their products are not for me. The screenshots are Adobe Audition.)

Here's the settings I've saved in channel mixer to:
a) go to mid-side
b) go back to the original stereo



You can copy such levels into whatever audio software you use with a channel mixer. The mixer range must go negative in order to subtract.

You see that to make "mid", which is mono, we mix 50% of left and 50% of right, which avoids any chance of clipping from the combined signal level going too high.

The side channel - now in the right channel - gives us a place to remove some rumble "for free". That is the up-and-down out-of-phase movement of a stereo record stylus.

Vinyl is mastered by removing stereo from low bass to avoid the needle jumping out of the groove. Music's bass is therefore usually in the mono center, reproduced by a single subwoofer in your stereo, and you can't locate its source in your listening room anyway. Anything below 100Hz in the side channel, perhaps even up to 200Hz, is pure rumble, not music.

You can apply a linear-phase FFT-based equalizer on just the right channel to cut this low bass down to zero. On your turntable where rumble is pervasive, this may be a 3dB reduction in rumble level.

Here you can see I'm using an EQ where the lowest level is 0% - absolutely no bass passes:



Back in stereo mode, you should again use such an EQ or subsonic filter to cut everything below 30Hz - pure power-wasting woofer-fluttering rumble. That frequency can be set even higher for long passages without any bass in the music.

 

There is a M/S preset in the Mixing module, at least in RX8 and RX9. Works just fine. And in case it doesn't exist in your version, you can add a preset anyway.

 

The M/S preset in the RX mixing module has always been there (I started beta testing for them on RX2) so the notion that iZotope is hiding it is trying to sell people a center extract plugin is simply not accurate.

As I've posted before on here, I prefer to use my own preset with a keyboard shortcut assigned to it as a toggle back and forth between MS and LR.


However, as you mentioned and I repeated, you can easily use the presets that come with RX. I'm at work and have RX7 installed here currently but it's similar for other versions:


@tvstrategies: I can relate and sympathize with your noisy turntable. I went through two dreadfully noisy Pro-Ject pieces of utter junk that sounded like a hummingbird was permanently trapped inside them (no matter what hacks I found on the net to improve the situation). After switching to my current Pioneer, I was really happy with the quiet backgrounds. However, with some careful application of RX noise reduction, especially to the S channel once converted to M/S, I was still able to get acceptable results from the old Pro-Jects.

Practice is your best weapon in this. Applying denoising primarily to the S channel (or at least a stronger amount) will help although depending on the source of the noise the noise may be more predominant in the M channel. While I agree with harby on focusing on the S channel, I disagree about there being nothing musical below 100Hz in the S channel. There can be a lot of resonance and ambience down there because although most (not all) LPs had the extreme lows rolled off, in the analog world is was never a sudden brickwall cut of all material below 100Hz. It was done with analog filters so there's still material down there, just not as loud. Plus, there were phase effects that affected higher frequencies going way up into the lower midrange. We've discussed that aspect in this thread before so I won't belabor it.

Anyway, this hobby is supposed to be fun. No need for a doctoral thesis! ;-) I haven't had much time to pursue it lately. Any free time I have has been mostly dedicated to setting up and learning to use my first Apple Mac computer and porting all my software over for music and photography. I'm stunned at just how powerful the new M1 chip is in even in the base Mac Mini model I chose. I have a photo processing program that on my old home PCs took on average 5 minutes per photo. On my work PC where I have an NVidia 2060 GPU, it takes about a minute. On my Mac Mini M1, it takes 5 seconds! I haven't had a lot of time to do much audio work with it but initial tests on RX and Audition show big performance gains so anyone contemplating trying a Mac for audio, jump in, the water's fine!

Oh and Grant, thanks for the shoutouts, etc. I'm not a "guru," just a guy who gets a lot of enjoyment out of this hobby when I have time. I'm due to retire in about 3 years so I look forward to having the time to really enjoy it.

 

I'm sticking with the Windows platform. Lots of good things about the new 1700 socket chips.

 

True but in my case, I`ve been getting very into photography and post-processing. My Intel integrated graphics from 2011 and 2016 were just not able to give me the kind of performance I want and the continued ridiculous pricing for GPUs was discouraging so I went over to the dark side.

I still love my PCs but for graphics and audio, I'm very impressed with my little Mac Mini. I also like that I'll be able to trade it in next year and get probably about half the price back to upgrade to the Mac Mini Pro with an M1 pro or max chip that will give me Alder Lake performance without all the thermal reactor effect!

 

Hi Stefan, Thanks for telling me where to find and select the M/S encoder/decoder, in the RX8 mixing panel. The Y-axis still shows L and R, not M and S. Hitting 'Render' seems to do something but I'm not sure what. So, where can I find instructions on how to operate this panel and do your suggested steps ("... apply RX noise reduction ... to the S channel once converted to M/S..."). It's obviously not "select all" and "hit render" ;-) I'm also not sure whether these tools are even available to me - I'm using RX-8 Elements, which has a voice de-noise but apparently no spectral de-noise tool.

This is like first exposure to Photoshop, when you had no idea where to find the features and the controls, let alone the concept of workflows. Also, this is not my chosen vocation or area of expertise - Sorry to be a newbie with "novice" questions.

PS - I was sufficiently intimidated by last night's (above) responses that I almost started shopping for turntables, but then remembered my Pro-Ject turntable trial purchase - I'll leave it to saying that it went back to the store the same day. Leaving me determined to power my way through this noise reduction learning curve.

PPS - Yes, the M1 / M1-Pro / M1-Max are true wonders. Definitely prefer using a computer versus a heat-sink or a time-sink. The only thing keeping me from a new MacBook Pro is having to finally give up Photoshop CS6 (or rent it for $30/month...).

 

I'm not sure what's available in RX Elements but if you can see the MS Encoder and Decoder then you should be able to do this. When you convert to MS, the interface will still say Left and Right but the M channel will be in the left channel track and the S in the right channel track. So, try applying noise reduction to the S channel only. Capture or "learn" a noise profile from an area between songs and see how it sounds. Note that listening in MS can be quite different as the centered mono info is in the (M)id channel and the stereo information (often echo and ambience) is in the (S)ide (In fact, this was the basis used for early versions of Dolby Surround Sound in theaters but that another story)

As I wrote above, practice and you'll get the hang of it. This thread has a ton of good info in it so read and practice. Try posting some samples to the other Post your Needledrops thread where you'll get some feedback.

You can actually get the Photoshop photography package for $10/month. It includes both versions of Lightroom, a stripped down version of Premiere Pro, Adobe Bridge, and a couple of other things. A lot of power for the money. The new updates that just got released to both Photshop and Lightroom are really cool. Anyway, let's not get off topic as this is a needledrop thread.

 

Well, consider this:

 

Consider this. Here's to the good ol' days of mid-side processing...on maybe a Pentium 90.



Cool Edit 96, archived 2001: Wayback Machine

Now your $200 a year paid to iZotope will get you access to their tutorials. Tutorials like "how to choose the best tempo." What used to be called a help file.. Peloton, but for audio.

 

Syntrillium's Cool Edit Pro was a great software. And I never forget the "Pong" easter egg it had.

 

probably an SSL automation computer ping-pong game remake.

 

D'amn! I forgot all about this!!! You really sent me back down memory lane!

I'd rather buy iZotope with a one-time payment. I don't believe in renting software.

 

I've been wondering lately about whether I should make my drops with an elliptical needle as opposed to the Micro Line stylus I'm using right now? The ML stylus picks up a lot of noise from the records, while an elliptical will be more forgiving for that. I clean my discs before I record them, but some noise won't go away.