Audiophile fuses or standard Bussman fuses ?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Soundlabs, Mar 15, 2019.

  1. Weber

    Weber Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Lodi ,Ohio
    As I said before, I tried the AMR gold fuses. I tossed them out. They veiled my system. Gold is a softener to the sound. If your system has a warm sound, then the AMR fuses will veil your top end.
     
    Tajo1960 likes this.
  2. Pastafarian

    Pastafarian Forum Resident

    I'm not sure this really relates to a fuse but if you do tell them after the positive effect, the effect continues in many people.

    This was observed in a placebo v strong pain killers study.
     
  3. Just Walking

    Just Walking Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    Those papers have nothing to do with mundane, everyday things to do with audio. Thy are to do with energy harvesting nano-electronic structures. In other words esoteric physics.

    The only circumstances that you can measure the effect of grain boundaries and impurities in copper is at cryogenic temperature - something called the Residual Resistance Ratio, and really only measurable at liquid helium temperature at 4.2 degrees above absolute zero.. At room temperature - forget all these weird quantum electronics effects. They are totally swamped out as a result of the thermal motion of electrons.
     
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  4. Ilusndweller

    Ilusndweller S.H.M.F.=>Reely kewl.

    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    Exactly. The jump from the nano to micro level is a big jump and I see the point you make which basically supports my overall point that the shmarketers say whatever "blahblahblah" with little scientific evidence.

    From the intro of the second linked article.

    "For instance, GB resistivity is a major concern for electron transport in sub-20 nm interconnects in integrated circuits, (1−5)"

    Having said that, there is still plenty of single crystal wire (with no metallurgical grain boundaries through the entire length of cable) of all kinds (power, interconnect, speaker, no doubt digicables as well) to choose from in Stereoland.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2021
  5. Weber

    Weber Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Lodi ,Ohio
    I think he gas heard what I have described. I have experienced it myself. Try the Acme fuses. They will bring more sound to your system. Then if you want a lot more try the SR orange or purple fuses.
     
  6. timind

    timind phorum rezident

    Have you looked at my system profile? I'm not dealing with "warm" sound through my system. In fact, quite the opposite.

    In my research I found a few threads on various forums concerning the AMR fuses. Some folks loved them, some folks heard no difference, but I don't think I came across anyone who said they made their system sound worse. I'm not discounting your opinion, but it wasn't represented in my search. It was a cursory search so I could've missed it.

    The real point is, I heard nothing different between the high priced fuses and the OEM fuses; not better, not worse, not veiled or less veiled, nothing, nada, zip. According to you, I should've heard some difference. Kind of glad I took the time though, as now if I comment on a fuse thread I have the experience to back up my opinion. My opinion won't just be that it's scientifically impossible for a working fuse in the A/C mains line to have an audible effect on a piece of equipment, my opinion will be backed by my experience.
     
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  7. Weber

    Weber Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Lodi ,Ohio
    I'm not sure how to view your system on here. As you know now. The AMR fuses do nothing for your system. In my system I went backwards with them.
     
  8. Weber

    Weber Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Lodi ,Ohio
    Ok. I found out how to read about your system. Looks good. The AMR fuses just don't work for you either.
     
    timind likes this.
  9. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Look what I found

    Location:
    AZ
    Experience never hurts, but knowing you I'm even surprised you tried!! :) But then again you've 100% put to rest that 1% doubt you might have had going in, so that's good.

    Whenever I want to alter the sound profile of my system, like most 99.99999999% of us, changing fuses to accomplish that goal *never* comes to mind. Because it's a fools errand, and there are plenty of course other more real / impactful ways to change the sound profile of your system - like swapping cartridges, components, speakers, etc. You know, things that have a real impact. I couldn't even fathom wasting a Sunday afternoon swapping fuses and listening for positive changes to my systems sound.

    Reading about folks that swap fuses to noticeably / materially change the sound profile of their system is pure amusement, but sadly a big problem on forums / internet if your goal is to glean fact from religion (or marketing). But on the positive side, at least you can find out the facts these days on the internet too, thirty five years ago when information was tougher to mine you were prey for disingenuous sales / marketing tactics.
     
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  10. Weber

    Weber Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Lodi ,Ohio
    I tried the AMR fuses years ago. Now have you ever tried a low output moving coil cartridge? I no longer play LP recordings. But when I did a good moving coil was tops.
     
  11. timind

    timind phorum rezident

    The fuses came with the dac so what the heck. I agree totally with you about what can have real sonic impact. I would add acoustic treatment, and the most cost effective method, proper speaker placement to the list.
     
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  12. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Look what I found

    Location:
    AZ
    Agreed, the list is longer than I briefly stated :), and anything speaker related I defer to you only because I know how many you've tried!

    Thanks for adding credibility / experience to the fuse "debate"/
     
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  13. Just Walking

    Just Walking Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    No cable is single crystal. Single crystal copper is as soft as hot toffee. As soon as you work it, crystal boundaries form. That happens as soon as you bend the cable. If fact it happens as soon as the cable is put on a spool.

    Now you can anneal it thermally, but that takes around 400C. That is the standard method of beating copper sheet into a shape. Heat to 4ooC, and cool slowly. It then becomes really soft so you can start to work it. As you work it, it starts to go hard as grain boundaries form. So reheat to 400C and repeat as necessary. Standard engineering process.

    Now you might get away from putting the cable in your oven. I tried that umpteen years ago at 270C - but forgot that is above the melting temperature of solder (and 400C definitely is!). The result was the solder flowed and rendered the expensive connectors at each end a dead loss. Cable was annealed, but useless.
     
  14. Ilusndweller

    Ilusndweller S.H.M.F.=>Reely kewl.

    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    There are plenty of audio cable manufacturers who claim their wire is single crystal. But I hear you and this further proves my point, they say whatever they want. :)
     
  15. Just Walking

    Just Walking Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    Plenty of audio cable manufacturers talk total bollocks.
     
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  16. Just Walking

    Just Walking Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    Here's another view of cable foo. Without going into the depths of the physics:

    The average velocity of conduction electrons in copper is 1.6 x 10^6 meters per second (or 1000 mph) at room temperature.
    The average time between collision of these electrons with copper atoms is 2.5 x 10^-14 seconds. When an electron collides with a copper atom, it is scattered into a new direction.
    The product of these two numbers gives the average distance an electron in copper moves before it collides with a copper atom. This is 40 x 10-8 meters - or 40 nanometres (about 1/1000 of a human hair).
    The spacing of copper atoms is 0.2nm. So an electron travels 200 atomic diameters before it hits a copper atom and scatters.

    Now those processes are related quite simply, and only, to the temperature of the copper. The fact that thermally excited electrons move a mere 200 atom distances before scattering knows absolutely nothing about the crystal structure of the copper. It does not give a rat's ass about how a piece of wire, be it loudspeaker, interconnect, power cable or fuse is marketed.

    That is not to say that there aren't attributes of cable construction which may indeed influence sound quality, but that has more to do with RFI management than anything else. But I've expounded on that topic elsewhere on the Hoffman fora.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2021
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  17. Weber

    Weber Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Lodi ,Ohio
    Thats a great high tech discussion. He is a question for you on this high tech discussion. Why is it then some copper cables have a different sound signature ? This is my belief, almost all recordings are done with some kind of copper cabling. So as a audiophile if I use pure silver cables I should be able to capture the ture sound on the recording or recording of the live show as I play it back at home levels.
     
  18. Just Walking

    Just Walking Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    You have to get your mind around two processes. My last post relates the random thermal motion of electrons that happens in copper regardless of any signal that you are trying to get through a piece of copper wire.

    Then you try to put an AC signal through. That causes the electrons to shuffle back and forth coherently with the signal. Note that is back, and forth. And for an interconnect in which the current is truly tiny - perhaps 1 volt rms into (say) 50k ohms, or 20uA rms. I'll have to run the numbers to tell you how much the electrons move (and then move back) for 20uA, but I'm fairly sure it will be much less than 1 micron.

    Anyway, it doesn't answer your question. Other to observe that recording studios are wired up with cheap screened twisted pair or star quad cable that cost a couple of dollars a metre. Kilometers of the stuff. But professional users like that have mixing and ancillary equipment that is balanced. Domestic audio gear is usually single ended. But you believe what you like regarding cables - it is a free world and you can spend your money as you think fit.
     
  19. Weber

    Weber Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Lodi ,Ohio
    Yes I can do as you do. Talk about what we know best. And good gear and good cables equal great sound quality from a system. Regardless of scientific measurements and how the cables are made. You need good quality cables in a system to get the best results out of the gear you are using.
     
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  20. Just Walking

    Just Walking Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    We've moved away from the original topic, which was fuses. However, this is peripheral to the whole subject of why things sound different.

    There are several possible mechanisms for different interconnect cables sounding different in single ended domestic audio equipment:

    1. Low resistance screen. Any accidental currents (either mains, mains harmonics or RF) that flows in the screen get added straight to the signal. A low resistance, heavy gauge screen minimizes that.
    2. Clean and tight connections. That sounds so obvious, but one person I know with an interest in vintage audio was tormented by a radio station. Turned out to be the RCA connection acting as a rectifying diode. A good clean sorted the problem.
    3. The quality of the solder joints. Trying to solder a heavy gauge cable to a connector is not easy, and I seriously wonder how well those critical joints are sometimes made. Good cable companies either spot weld the cable, or clean and inspect the solder joints after assembly.

    Similar for loudspeaker cables. There are two further mechanism with those. Depending on the inductance and capacitance of the cable, some power amps can be only marginally stable. And any RF picked up on the cable works its way into the power amp feedback loop and push some amps into instability, or at best high levels of distortion and/or DC offset on the outputs. If a power amp is correctly designed, all this should be just fine and problem-free. Note the proviso.

    So yes - there are mechanisms that can cause cables to sound different. But often it is more to do with interaction between engineering aspects of the cable and the equipment between which it is connected, and how RF polluted the environment is.

    Many of those problems vanish for professional grade equipment with balanced connections, where the screen carries no signal current and acts simply as an RF management feature. Think about a concert environment, in which there are really long cable bundles, from the stage to the mixing desk maybe 50 metres away. When the roadies arrive and connect all of that up, it has to work first time with no hum or RF or interference from the lighting rig. It has to be plug and play, 100%. You can't say "sorry, Sting, you'll have to delay the gig because we can't get rid of a radio station"
     
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  21. Weber

    Weber Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Lodi ,Ohio
    Soldering cables to connectors can come loose or crack over time. That's why Audioquest uses a compression system instead of soldiering the connectors. That itself is the best way to make a connection between wire and connector. I have never picked up any RF in any well made cables. Made some diy cables could.
     
  22. Just Walking

    Just Walking Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    I'm assuming your autocomplete is playing havoc with your mails :D
     
  23. Just Walking

    Just Walking Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    I've worked extensively in space engineering. During launch, apart from max 4.5g there are vibration loads of 20g+. And when boosters are ejected, and the fairing is ejected (and other events in comissioning), these are done with pyrotechnic explosive bolts - which put a 1000g shock through the launch vehicle and satellite.

    And I can assure you that none of the many hundreds of thousands of solder joints and connectors come loose or crack over time.
     
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  24. Just Walking

    Just Walking Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
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  25. Weber

    Weber Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Lodi ,Ohio
    I'm not comparing audio to space craft. But it's interesting to note your job.
     

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