The Kinks - Album by Album (song by song)

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by mark winstanley, Apr 4, 2021.

  1. ajsmith

    ajsmith Senior Member

    Location:
    Glasgow
    .. although probably the best known spiv in the UK's pop culture is Private Walker from Dad's Army:

    [​IMG]
     
  2. All Down The Line

    All Down The Line The Under Asst East Coast White Label Promo Man

    Location:
    Australia
    Second Hand Car Spiv

    Last year I bizarrely came to realise that i had always had this track over the last 2 decades but forgotten it until recently when a friend Konverted my Kinks Kassette radio show to CD.

    Some crazy idiosyncratic deft keyboard lines as we get into the tune though my favourite part is all the horns with the percussive push and pull they create.

    In fact they remind me of some film music of workers metronomically carrying out their repetitive tasks in a factory setting and I will guess that I am thinking of the Oompah Loompah's in Charlie And The Chocolate Factory?

    This happens throughout the intro and at later moments also such as briefly at 2:56.
    Whilst we are talking about musical instruments they can also have an industrial sound that is striking as both and a totally off the wall example would be Guitar Shop by Jeff Beck.

    I like all Ray fits into the stories lyrics but find myself too distracted (in a good way) by the music to keep tabs on whatever he may be singing.

    The backing female vocals don't grab me at all and the song is not quite as arresting with it's brilliance as the last two but I am not taking any points off Ray's Act at this stage of the game!
     
  3. Zeki

    Zeki Forum Resident

    Nicely observed!
     
  4. Vangro

    Vangro Forum Resident

    Location:
    London
    I don't think actual spivs were exactly as popular in wartime, as that Wiki page makes out, given that they were fighting age men who'd somehow avoided military service. But there is a comic side to duckers and divers - as opposed to straightforward criminals - hence the popularity of Arthur Daley and Delboy Trotter.
     
  5. ajsmith

    ajsmith Senior Member

    Location:
    Glasgow
    Good spot, I'd say there's also a bit of Chaplin's 'Modern Times'/Looney Tunes 'Powerhouse' 1930s crazed production line intensity to the staccato worker bee assault of this track too.

     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2022
  6. Vangro

    Vangro Forum Resident

    Location:
    London
    I was going to mention Private Walker, an earlier example is George Cole's character in the St Trinian's films..
     
  7. All Down The Line

    All Down The Line The Under Asst East Coast White Label Promo Man

    Location:
    Australia
    Thanks, I was not at all sure that I was recalling the correct scene or film.
     
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  8. All Down The Line

    All Down The Line The Under Asst East Coast White Label Promo Man

    Location:
    Australia
    Now you've got me in my Loony Tunes Khildhood and I am stuck for the right Klassic Kartoon visual to the Klassy horns match!
     
  9. Fischman

    Fischman RockMonster, ClassicalMaster, and JazzMeister

    Location:
    New Mexico
    Second Hand Car Spiv

    Can't quite get into this one, which is a bit of a shame as it has a lot going for it. The drawbacks seem to be just a little stronger than the awesomeness.

    I've said a few times how Ray doesn't have a classically beautiful voice, yet somehow uses it to great effect in a wide variety of circumstances. But here, it's just annoying. I know it's in keeping with the character; I guess this is the point where the theatrical aspect of the album finally overtakes my ability to appreciate it as music.

    And speaking of annoying, how 'bout that intro? And unfortunately that sort of plodding and pounding occupies too much of the song for my taste.

    I do appreciate and acknowledge all the positives the other astute ears have mentioned here. They're just not what stand out mosy in my personal ear on this cut.
     
  10. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product Thread Starter

    When I said capers this morning, it was the Keystone Cops I was thinking about.

    It isn't really the same, but the feel of it seems slightly related.....
    The Keystone music is more straight pop/jazz or whatever it's called, and although Ray's song is way more complex in its construction, something about the feel of it reminds me of these guys...
    I think it kicks in about 1:50

     
  11. CheshireCat

    CheshireCat Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cheshire
    Second Hand Car Spiv
    A Liquorice Allsorts of a song, rather like Raymond's Flash jacket. If you don't like this shotgun lyric delivery at the start, I'll give you a different delivery in a short while. I enjoy this song for its part of the show and there's all sorts going on. I personally think it is Flash, not one of his heavies 'now I'm in control, of the country as a whole' would indicate so.
    He's certainly not a likeable character to me, what with his gangster element available to 'duff up' any of his dissenters, just like nowadays when a current nation's leader allegedly paid some thugs to 'sort out' a journalist who wasn't following the script. Flash cheated and lied his way to the top, with no concern who was trampled underfoot on the way. For a while the people didn't mind 'it's just Flash being Flash...' but all good things must come to an end. 'Watch out Flash...'
     
  12. Zeki

    Zeki Forum Resident

    You’re probably right. As others have mentioned, it could be Flash recounting his early beginnings.

    And, for the musical production on stage, it was just easier to cast a separate character/singer.

    Maybe.
     
  13. DISKOJOE

    DISKOJOE Boredom That You Can Afford!

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    "Second Hand Car Spiv": What an endearingly goofy, weird song this is. I too see a bit of Madness (madness?) in this song. Can you see Suggs singing this in an all star version of Preservation never coming to a theatre near you? My fellow Avids who commented on this song while I slept the sleep of Orpheus are mostly right about this song, that it anticipates the future from rap to post punk & that it doesn't sound like the Kinks, but only could be done by the Kinks. My head spins thinking about it. Anyway, Avid Ajsmith is right in wondering who else in 1974, heck, even today, who even attempt something like this? Also I was wondering where the song "Slum Kids " fits in this? It probably says the same thing as "Second Hand Car Spiv", but more as a conventional rock song, which probably explains why the Kinks performed it live up to 1977 if not beyond.
     
  14. ajsmith

    ajsmith Senior Member

    Location:
    Glasgow
    Suggs of course affects the persona of a shifty second hand car salesman in the clip for what is imo the best Madness song AND video, ‘Shut Up’… Though I’d rate The Kinks above Madness I have to admit I actually prefer this song to ‘Second Hand Car Spiv’ … and that’s saying a lot!

     
  15. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product Thread Starter

    I certainly can
     
  16. ajsmith

    ajsmith Senior Member

    Location:
    Glasgow
    ‘Slum Kids’ seems to have taken the place of ‘Second Hand Car Spiv’ in the stage show.. as the album was recorded in the first half of 1974 but not properly staged until the end of the year, I wonder if ‘Slum Kids’ was written for the live show after the album was recorded, hence why no studio version ever seems to have surfaced?
     
  17. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product Thread Starter

    Great track, but much like the Kinks, I couldn't possibly pick a favourite.
    The Rise And Fall may be my favourite album of theirs though.
     
  18. Fortuleo

    Fortuleo Used to be a Forum Resident

    This is a point you've made a few times in the last days/weeks regarding this whole Preservation shebang and it's certainly a very valid one, except I'd say that Ray's ambivalence, his changes of heart in one direction then back again throughout his discography, what one could even name his confusion, is precisely what makes these songs interesting, fascinating even. Some people (yourself included if I remember well) said his Preservation lyrics lacked subtlety. I think 1/ it's not really true (because from one song to the next a lot of things are balanced out) ; 2/ in some cases, confusion can be better than subtlety, as long as the author is aware of it, willing to examine it and allows it to break free, to see where it emotionally leads him. Not all works of art (I typed "works of heart" first, before noticing my mistake!) need to be intellectually valid or beyond reproach. Being wrong or extreme, or taking the risk of being so can be artistically fruitful. Subtlety's great, but it's often a hiding place, a way of avoiding to actually take a stand. Ray takes sides. Contradictory ones. Many of them. In every single song. And not just because he impersonates different characters but because he feels for them, because his own peculiar madness is an unlikely mixture of self-righteous narcissism and self-effacing empathy (what they call hypersensitivity, maybe). He can be Flash and/or the Spiv, wholeheartedly, because he has them in him. Same with Mr Black, because he clearly has delusional tyrannic tendencies himself. I love conflicted artists not in spite but because of their contradictions. I like how fiercely they'll express them, no matter what. Yeah, Ray hates the idea of his childhood neighborhood to be rebuilt and his family to be relocated in new housing programs, but he also saw this same neighborhood for what it was, a slum full of rats. A **** hole, but his own **** hole… Contradiction? Of course! Thankfully! I'm one who likes John Lennon to sing about letting go of possessions he would defend at all costs in real life. It means he aspires to something bigger than him, something he knows he can't himself manage. That's subtle enough for me (and I know many hate this song because he's an "hypocrite", but what matters to me as a listener is that he believes every word he sings the moment he sings them, not later that day when in a meeting with his banker). I like Ray to make fun of Mr Pleasant like he's looking at himself in a mirror, I like him to sing about being a star and loving it, or loathing it, or wanting to be an even bigger star, or not wanting to be a star at all. This is pop music, not sociological science. You feel first, then think second. Well, in the case of Second Hand Car Spiv, I'll admit it's not 100% pop music. But it certainly doesn't pretend to be sociological science either, does it ?
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2022
  19. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product Thread Starter

    Nice post.
    I seem to remember reading somewhere that Ray was a Labour (Democrat) supporter because his dad was..... which is how most people go.... but I also remember reading that he was extremely disappointed with them when they were elected
    Not trying to raise a political discussion, I say that to say this.
    There's a good chance that Ray's angle would change in relation to who was currently in power, and how bad of a job they were doing.

    The thing that strikes me about this album, is that both sides cop a lot of flak, and frankly, they deserve it .

    There has been a lot of posts about Ray wouldn't be a conservative, or something along those lines......
    From where we are at the moment with the discography so far, it seems to me he would lean Libertarian based on his lyrics.

    It's certainly an interesting batch of thoughts, but generally I don't see Ray being too pleased with either extreme.
     
  20. Vangro

    Vangro Forum Resident

    Location:
    London
    I don't disagree with any of that, I just hope that people realize that Ray Davies has a fairly confused and confusing worldview which - for all his moments of genius - does not make his commentary of the social and political life of the post war UK particularly reliable or accurate. The guy's been a pop star since he was 19, he's not really been in touch with the 'ordinary people' for a very long time - I feel a concept album coming on!
     
  21. Vangro

    Vangro Forum Resident

    Location:
    London
    He's been going round claiming he's a socialist for years while, at the same time, admitting he's never voted in his life. He claimed he hated Blair for not being socialist enough and, it would appear, he disliked Corbyn for being too socialist.
     
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  22. The late man

    The late man Forum Resident

    Location:
    France
    Well, many left-wing voters find themselves in the same situation, in many Western countries. You just want your "normal" left and it's nowhere to be found. I don't want to initiate a political debate, just to say that this is no proof of confusion or contradiction to me.
     
  23. donstemple

    donstemple Member of the Club

    Location:
    Maplewood, NJ
    Second Hand Car Spiv

    Wow there is a lot jammed in here. It is a bit much to take in on first listen, or the first few listens... Unlike anything they've done before, to my ears. And interesting discussion yesterday about the Jewish musical elements, because I actually hear of that in this song. I am certainly no expert (or even too familiar) with traditional Jewish music, but I can almost hear some elements of this would be played at a Jewish wedding or ceremony. The speed, the instrumentation, the bounciness. Or it just may be more of a general European polka vibe? I really have no idea.

    Lyrically, Ray's delivery is so quick that I missed a lot of what is being said in the first few listens. But once you sort of know and get familiar with the craziness of the music, you can pay attention and hear these lines that while quick, are pronounced so well. I love how he says "squalor" to rhyme with "fodder"

    Another somewhat interesting thing I noticed is how the title of the track is used differently in the two main choruses of the song. In the first chorus, it ends the first line -- "So I worked my way up.... to be a second-hand car spiv," but in the second chorus, he starts out with the title phrase: "So a second-hand car spiv.... was what I became."

    I agree with others that this seems like Flash's backstory and he is the particular Spiv singing. And I think the reprise of Flash's theme from Here Comes Flash makes that abundantly clear. His environment growing up led him to where he is now, still using tricks to swindle others out of money. It's like the old saying, "You can take the spiv out of the slum, but you can't take the slum out of the spiv".

    Interesting how the last line is "Life is a crooked game, and slum kids never change." This sort of wrap-up phrasing reminds me of the opposite sentiment from Do You Remember Walter?: "Yes people often change, but memories of people can remain."
     
  24. Martyj

    Martyj Who dares to wake me from my slumber? -- Mr. Flash

    Location:
    Maryland, USA
    That you’ve evoked Keystone comedies—for any reason—while discussing the Kinks opens the door for a personal observation.

    As one might guess from my Stan Laurel avatar, I am a passionate silent movie comedy fan (confession: I’m more a Keaton and Lloyd man. But Laurel works as my avatar because I actually look a little bit like the man. Especially in my younger years.) I was obsessing over the stuff with books and Super 8mm movie screenings about 4 or 5 years before stumbling onto the Kinks.

    These films appeal for their energy, liveliness, inventiveness, fun, and even brevity (they can be enjoyed in small dose clips, much in the way good rock n’ roll can be consumed 2:30 minutes at a time). And that’s without any kind of music accompaniment—which is perhaps why when one intuitively adds music to the experience it naturally gravitates towards the bright, uptempo. Or, in their more melodramatic moments, to tried and tested musical ideas that cut straight to the heart strings.

    I think that’s why the Kinks resonated with me so much when I discovered them in 1978. In contrast to the contemporary, somewhat ponderous approach of Prog rock or “look-at-me,-I’m-so-sensitive” school of 70’s singer/songwriters, the Kinks don’t take things too seriously (except on the regrettable misstep coming up, by my count, on Saturday’s song. If I have time I’ll elaborate then on my least-favorite Ray Davies/Kinks original.) Much as the way I characterize silent comedy in the paragraph above, terms that come to mind are energy, liveliness, inventiveness, fun, and brevity (despite the long-form concepts, there is no Brain Salad Surgery for these guys.) When they veer into melodramatic moments (Celluloid Heroes, Sitting in My Hotel, Oklahoma USA, Face in the Crowd, to name a few from the RCA era) it mirrors the sort of melodrama one finds in silent films, evoking Chaplin-esque pathos and universal human observations (see: Waterloo Sunset, See My Friends, etc.)

    This characterization is especially relevant when assessing the Preservation LP’s, or the entire RCA period for that matter. That’s perhaps why I rank Muswell through Schoolboys right up there with the Pye “Golden era.” This sense of playfulness starts to fade during the Arista and beyond years, though it didn’t have to. It is occasionally revived here and there. But the arena rock fist pumping machismo posturing replaced my ability to subconsciously equate the Kinks to the irreverent playfulness of silent comedies of the RCA stage show era. But that’s a discussion for another day.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2022
  25. Wondergirl

    Wondergirl Forum Resident

    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    :laugh::laugh: well done
     

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