i would definitely agree that Black Tie White Noise is the worst album in the newest box set. heck, it's my least favorite of ALL his albums (including Tin Machine albums). I never play it much. Hard to get thru it.
I don't doubt it. There'll soon be 9,500 unsold copies on eBay and Discogs at some preposterous price. If I were Nigel Reeve, I'd have stuck Miss America High on as a cassette only bonus track
They sold 150 in the first hour in London. I imagine it slowed dramatically after that initial rrush.
No, but my gear is a bose desktop speaker and my car audio. I don't bother updating my profile specs, because 'earbuds' pretty much covers it. I try to avoid sound quality opinions for those who are sticklers on the subject. I ASSUME the LP is cut from the same digital source as the CD. I base my CD/LP/Cassette decisions on where in my house (or car) I will likely listen the most. Sorry, that didn't really answer your question, so in short; I couldn't tell a difference. The mixes themselves (not sound quality wise) were pretty different in my opinion, but there are different instruments and stuff going on. You may notice misc alt guitar parts. I think Hole in the Ground was a pretty marked difference in mix, and I love the alt version...a little more dynamic in my opinion (not equating to DR value, just change)
I will get the cassette. I have a tape deck in the garage, that gets way more play than most of my other audio set ups. I don't like plugging my phone into it, and found a use for many old cassettes. It offers a different soundscape, that's for sure. I've added a number of 'new' cassette releases to the mix... the main downside to any cassette deck is the title drop off after the mid 90's! Some of those 95 era sets are kinda hard to come by! I know it's kind of a joke, but not just a hipster collectors item for me, I actually play most of them.
I understand why it's not his most popular, but I LOVE BTWN. It's got a great soundscape to it, and has a great groove. I love the sleazy sax and trumpet throughout. It sounds like it's straight out of 1992, and I love that feel from it. I think it sounds classic 90's without sounding dated. Of course, one of the things I love about DB is how extreme his (us) fanbase is. A dud for one of us, is another's treasure. BTWN and Young Americans are two of my favs, but often ranked pretty low. Likewise, I have only made it through Let's Dance and Outside maybe once each (in one sitting I mean).
I know there are a lot of people that don’t like Heathen (surprisingly so, if you ask me). But while I think Toy is fine, DB would have been on the verge of losing me if this came after …hours, which I really didn’t like. I’m glad to have it, but I’m also glad it didn’t get released when he wanted it to.
BTWN has never been one of my faves either. I rank it with Tonight , NLMD & TMII. BTWN is a waste of Nile Rodgers. On the bright side, for me anyway, it was the last bad album he ever made. Hours & Reality aren’t great but they are much more inspired and cohesive works. Say what you will about Toy but there’s an artistic purpose behind it.
Ditto. I can’t get through Hours either, and find Heathen & Reality highly overrated and oddly dull. Strangely enough, I do (genuinely!) enjoy Tonight a lot, so I likely just have very dodgy taste!
wow all this dislike for albums like Hours, Heathen and Reality? to me his best stuff is Man Who Sold the World thru Station to Station and then Buddah of Suburbia thru Blackstar. I absolutely LOVE the 90's thru the end material.
I have mentioned in past posts on other Bowie Threads, that BTWN was my first Bowie Album, as recall hearing ‘Jump They Say’ and loved it. I like the Entire Album, and the Opening Wedding Song just was different to my ears at the time. I bought the Singles 2CDs Set around that time, to get most of Bowie’s prior well known Songs on CD, and also found a New Copy of the Sound+Vision Box Set around that time, although think it was released a few years earlier. I recall seeing a few Songs from Let’s Dance on MTV, but as I was buying music initially(on Cassette Tapes), I guess those 2 Terrible Bowie Albums(Tonight and Never Let Me Down) were not of interest to me, and I was not well aware about Tin Machine and it being a Bowie Project, so in College was when I got BTWN. I went back to buy a few of the Older Bowie Albums on Ryko CD, starting with Station to Station based on the Songs I liked on the Singles 2 CDs Set, then eventually bought all of his Albums up through Let’s Dance. I then kept buying the 1990s Albums as he released them and loved 1.Outside the most, but I love Brian Eno, and also rank his other Collaboration Albums with Bowie from the late 1970s among my Favorite Bowie Albumd(I am a massive Talking Heads Fan, so have the Eno Connection on a few of their Albums, along with 2 Albums he did separately with David Byrne, and about 7 Years ago got into Roxy Music, with ‘For Your Pleasure’-Eno’s 2nd and Final Album with RM, being a Top 10-15 Album in my large CD Collection-I had bought the Roxy Music The Complete Albums Collection for Christmas in 2014 or 2015, just before that Box Set was started to no longer become available on Amazon). So, I still love BTWN, although not in my Top 6-7 Bowie Albums, as I rate Station to Station, Scary Monsters and Low in my Top 3, then my rankings can change month to month, but love 1.Outside, Heroes, Lodger, Ziggy Stardust, Aladdin Sane, Heathen and Blackstar in my next group of his Albums, but really love most of his Albums. I never did buy Tonight and Never Let Me Down though until buying the Loving the Album Deluxe Box Set that is the 4th of his Career Discography Deluxe Box Sets. In recent years, I tracked down the RCA West Germany CDs(along with the RCA Japan CSR for Aladdin Sane) in NM Condition, as although not Audiophile, still the best SQ option for his Albums up through Scary Monsters. Stage, Low, Heroes and Lodger hit my limited Music Budget the hardest, but glad I finally tracked them down in NM Condition.
I feel your pain. I assumed this would be readily available for years, perhaps at a big discount. (Hey maybe it will be). Why does FOMO always have to enter the equation these days? Amazon does have the vinyl at 10% off today. Hmmmm.
Sorry if this has been mentioned but are the unplugged/Disc 3 versions using the same vocal tracks as the electric versions or are these different takes altogether?
That's a very insightful observation. I was fanatic on Bowie from 1993 onwards, but Hours really dimmed my enthusiasm (and remains at the bottom of my list even today). I semi-lost interest in DB for a few years and was really buoyed when Heathen came out. I've really been enjoying Toy the past few weeks. I want to say that if Toy had happened in 2001, I would have liked it too. After all, I loved "You've Got a Habit of Leaving" and "Conversation Piece" when they emerged as Heathen b-sides. But... your comment has me re-thinking that. After the letdown of Hours - unfocused songwriting, poor vocal choices (all IMO of course), needless gimmicks - Toy might have felt like too little to get me excited again.
I couldn't get into this album, but I do think it has one bonafide gem, and it was already given an official release as a B-side and Heathen deluxe edition bonus track (as well as Nothing Has Changed):
It saddens me to see the flogging BTWN is getting here. It’s an uneven album but the worst tracks on it are dance instrumentals as opposed to truly awful songs like those on NLMD. The best tracks on BTWN all sound like classic Bowie to me, especially “Jump They Say” and his brilliant cover of “Nite Flights”. I cannot imagine in a million years preferring the hot turd that is hours… over BTWN.
I agree. I like BTWN even if there are a handful of tracks that I never ever listen to (the title track, Don't Let Me Down and Down, The Wedding Song) I think the rest are mostly great. I like Toy quite a bit and it's nice to have an official version out, but I really wish Liza and In the Heat of the Morning were included on the actual album and not just on the vinyl Toy box which is too expensive IMO. I frankly wish they'd just cobbled a full set of the best mixes, Visconi and Plati, covering all of this material and called that Toy. What they've done feels excessive in content that is not different enough, in a package that is underwhelming, for a cost that is offputting. I'll rely on streaming until Toy gets a breakout release (and then I'll complain about lack of Liza).
You say it saddens you to see BTWN get a flogging but then describe Hours as a hot turd. Just as you and others find enjoyment in BTWN, there are others who find enjoyment with Hours. Personally I enjoy them both and tend to think of it as a testament to his talent that he created music that is often accepted and rejected by his fan base in equal measure.
Here you go: foobar2000 1.6.7 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1 log date: 2022-01-11 09:05:30 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Analyzed: David Bowie / Toy CD1 DDP 160321 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR Peak RMS Duration Track -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR8 -0.01 dB -9.74 dB 5:04 01-I Dig Everything DR7 -0.01 dB -9.47 dB 4:49 02-You've Got A Habit of Leaving DR8 -0.01 dB -9.92 dB 3:47 03-The London Boys DR7 -0.01 dB -8.82 dB 3:47 04-Karma Man DR8 -0.01 dB -10.72 dB 3:53 05-Conversation Piece DR9 -0.01 dB -12.00 dB 4:40 06-Shadow Man DR8 -0.01 dB -9.14 dB 3:14 07-Let Me Sleep Beside You DR9 -0.01 dB -10.82 dB 3:33 08-Hole In The Ground DR9 -0.01 dB -10.46 dB 4:37 09-Baby Loves That Way DR9 -0.01 dB -10.42 dB 3:25 10-Can't Help Thinking About Me DR9 -0.01 dB -10.81 dB 5:35 11-Silly Boy Blue DR8 -0.01 dB -9.48 dB 4:16 12-Toy (Your Turn To Drive) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Number of tracks: 12 Official DR value: DR8 Samplerate: 44100 Hz Channels: 2 Bits per sample: 16 Bitrate: 1411 kbps Codec: CDDA ================================================================================ foobar2000 1.6.7 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1 log date: 2022-01-11 09:13:20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Analyzed: David Bowie / Toy CD2 Delivery DDP 230321 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR Peak RMS Duration Track -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR9 -0.01 dB -9.74 dB 4:47 01-Liza Jane DR8 -0.01 dB -9.46 dB 4:49 02-You've Got A Habit of Leaving (alternative mix) DR8 -0.01 dB -8.95 dB 4:44 03-Baby Loves That Way (alternative mix) DR8 -0.01 dB -8.83 dB 3:26 04-Can't Help Thinking About Me (alternative mix) DR9 -0.01 dB -9.82 dB 5:05 05-I Dig Everything (alternative mix) DR8 -0.01 dB -9.54 dB 3:49 06-The London Boys (alternative version) DR8 -0.01 dB -10.21 dB 5:12 07-Silly Boy Blue (Tibet Version) DR8 -0.01 dB -8.92 dB 3:15 08-Let Me Sleep Beside You (alternative mix) DR8 -0.01 dB -9.80 dB 3:53 09-In The Heat Of The Morning DR8 -0.01 dB -10.76 dB 3:52 10-Conversation Piece (alternative mix) DR8 -0.01 dB -9.77 dB 3:55 11-Hole In The Ground (alternative mix) DR10 -0.07 dB -13.49 dB 4:50 12-Shadow Man (alternative mix) DR8 -0.01 dB -10.03 dB 4:52 13-Toy (Your Turn To Drive) (alternative mix) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Number of tracks: 13 Official DR value: DR8 Samplerate: 44100 Hz Channels: 2 Bits per sample: 16 Bitrate: 1411 kbps Codec: CDDA ================================================================================ foobar2000 1.6.7 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1 log date: 2022-01-11 09:19:46 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Analyzed: David Bowie / Toy CD3 DDP 090321 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR Peak RMS Duration Track -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR8 -0.01 dB -10.40 dB 3:52 01-In The Heat Of The Morning (Unplugged & somewhat slightly electric mix) DR9 -0.01 dB -11.38 dB 4:59 02-I Dig Everything (Unplugged & somewhat slightly electric mix) DR8 -0.01 dB -9.78 dB 3:45 03-You've Got A Habit of Leaving (Unplugged & somewhat slightly electric mix) DR8 -0.01 dB -10.10 dB 3:45 04-The London Boys (Unplugged & somewhat slightly electric mix) DR9 -0.01 dB -11.17 dB 3:44 05-Karma Man (Unplugged & somewhat slightly electric mix) DR9 -0.01 dB -12.74 dB 3:51 06-Conversation Piece (Unplugged & somewhat slightly electric mix) DR9 -0.04 dB -12.76 dB 4:19 07-Shadow Man (Unplugged & somewhat slightly electric mix) DR9 -0.01 dB -10.17 dB 3:05 08-Let Me Sleep Beside You (Unplugged & somewhat slightly electric mix) DR12 -0.01 dB -14.41 dB 3:18 09-Hole In The Ground (Unplugged & somewhat slightly electric mix) DR10 -0.01 dB -11.94 dB 4:34 10-Baby Loves That Way(Unplugged & somewhat slightly electric mix) DR10 -0.01 dB -12.54 dB 3:30 11-Can't Help Thinking About Me (Unplugged & somewhat slightly electric mix) DR9 -0.53 dB -12.89 dB 5:29 12-Silly Boy Blue (Unplugged & somewhat slightly electric mix) DR10 -0.08 dB -13.43 dB 3:53 13-Toy (Your Turn To Drive) (Unplugged & somewhat slightly electric mix) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Number of tracks: 13 Official DR value: DR9 Samplerate: 44100 Hz Channels: 2 Bits per sample: 16 Bitrate: 1411 kbps Codec: CDDA ================================================================================
Thank You and appreciate your time to answer my request, and post the DR Results. Disappointed on how low these DR Numbers are, especially for the proper Album, but then again I had no high expectations based on the Bowie CD Reissued CDs from the recent Box Sets. Just thought since Toy was a New Re-recorded Album, it might have DR Average a little higher(around 11-12).
One of the great things about discussing Bowie’s catalog, and thanks to our host we have a forum to do that, is the differing opinions on the work. I love Let’s Dance and there’s a group of fans that just flat out hate it. I wasn’t crazy about Outside for 10 years and then one day I realized how fantastic it is. For me BTWN, coming off Tin Machine, seemed like a desperate attempt to regain mainstream acceptance. The inclusion of Al B. Sure? The guy was a flavor of the month R&B singer. Silly perhaps but I had a hard time believing Bowie would include such a lesser artist in a prominent role. Then there’s my beloved Ronno who I felt was completely wasted. I’m glad you love BTWN because reading your defense of it gives me reason to reconsider it. I don’t hate hours but I’ll let someone else defend that “hot turd.”
Beats me why some get bent out of shape if one expresses dislike of an album that somebody else thinks is great. We’re all different, and there are myriad different reasons for liking/disliking something. My initial response is often instinctual, governed by my first response to a track. I’ll often try again (as I have with Hours, Heathen & Reality) periodically to see if my opinion has changed. Usually it doesn’t, but there have been exceptions (Bitches Brew took me a long time to ‘crack’, but I now love it dearly!). There are those tracks or albums one has an instant reaction too, and those where it takes time (sometimes a great deal of time and listens) to appreciate something. Point being, there’s little to no objectivity with taste, and thank heavens for that - vive la difference!
