The Kinks - Album by Album (song by song)

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by mark winstanley, Apr 4, 2021.

  1. All Down The Line

    All Down The Line The Under Asst East Coast White Label Promo Man

    Location:
    Australia
    Clive's was close enough, he could have adopted them both and told them the correct pronunciation!
     
  2. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product Thread Starter

    I am certainly not suggesting @DISKOJOE didn't read that somewhere, and certainly I voiced my opinion on that, if it was true, at the time.....

    Of all the articles I have read and researched for this album (and there have been an awful lot), the only reference I found was

    "Clive Davis reportedly wanted “Brother” to be released as a single (he compared it to “Bridge Over Troubled Water” but in places it sounds more like the Beach Boys doing “Waterloo Sunset”). It’s an impressive cut, with finely arranged strings, vocal harmonies and biting guitar licks from the reliable Dave. You’d think a song with that title might address Ray’s love-hate relationship with his sibling, and maybe it does in disguised form: “The world’s going crazy and nobody gives a damn anymore/And they’re breaking off relationships and/Leaving on sailing ships for far and distant shores/For them it’s all over, but I’m gonna stay…’Cause I’m your brother, though I don’t even know your name/I’ve discovered that deep down inside you feel the same.”
    The Kinks' 'Sleepwalker': The Comeback - Best Classic Bands

    When we were coming into this album, there was an awful lot said about Clive Davis's input, interference? in the Kinks when they joined Arista .... Without spending hours trying to hunt down the references, essentially it seems to come down to the fact that Davis said
    - He didn't want a concept album
    - He wanted Ray to write singles again
    They are the only references to directives that I can find

    It has been mentioned that Clive is/was responsible for the strings being on Brother, but I can't find anything to support or refute that. EDIT: @ARL supplied it... cheers mate
    I also haven't found anything to support or refute Davis requesting Ray to write a Bridge Over Troubled Water type song.... I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I can't base my thoughts on stuff where I can't find anything to back it up, merely suggest "if that's true - then ....".

    As I can only go with the information I can find, I have to assume the Clive Davis factor has historically been generally overstated.

    From my perspective the album isn't anywhere near as bad as people are suggesting, unless
    - they particularly wanted concept albums
    - they miss the more obvious humour, and don't connect with the subtle sarcastic humour on here
    - their connection to the band is more to do with Music Hall tunes, than the rock band

    From where I look at this album, it really isn't the drastic change that others seem to see. Ray is writing the same types of songs he always has, and we have reflective, thoughtful songs, and punchy rock songs. The sound of the album is different as we have discussed, and that seems to have as much to do with 1977, new instruments, new mixing desk, and Ray's own want to remodel his approach to the band somewhat, particularly getting Dave back into the mainframe, rather than sitting at the back of the room awaiting his turn to do something.

    Just thoughts
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2022
  3. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product Thread Starter

    That sounds much more likely on the stuff I have managed to find
     
  4. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product Thread Starter

    I think you could only really suggest un-Kinksian, if you remove the "too often" part of the statement
     
    ARL, Zeki and DISKOJOE like this.
  5. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product Thread Starter

    With the way Ray and Dave have carried on over the years, I think it is very possible that You Don't Know My Name and Brother may work as a cryptic conversation between them...
    It isn't as obvious as the Too Many People - How Do You Sleep thing, but both songs make more sense based in the idea that it was Dave and Ray writing to each other via song..... to me at least
     
  6. fspringer

    fspringer Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York City
    In Americana, Ray notes a situation when going into the Arista offices to discuss signing with them, Clive putting on a tape for him from a songwriter/artist he wanted Ray to consider working with. What Ray heard was an embarrassing Kinks tribute song that made him blanche. Clearly, Clive was willing to do anything to kickstart The Kinks' relatively stalled career, even if it meant inviting in outside songwriters and artists. While Ray was offended, it's also worth noting Clive didn't force this on him, only put it out there as an option, and I can't tell whether that was a healthy suggestion or someone who didn't understand the dynamics of the band at all.

    Ray did need a kick on the pants at the time. He had total creative control of the band and was going in circles with the concept albums. He needed someone in a position of power to challenge him to change, and to also offer him the support he needed to push back towards the level of bands like The Who and The Stones in terms of assuming his rightful place in the ongoing scene.

    I'm also re-reading this era in the Johnny Rogan biography, and, boy, was it a mess. As witness by the revolving door for bass and keyboard players, along with both Avory and Dave being on the verge of quitting numerous times in these years. Andy Pyle, in particular, has some revealing comments about what it was like to be a sideman in the band at this time (not good!), and how that pressure increased dramatically with the touring and the prospect of pushing more into the limelight again. Ray's total control of the band is noted as a constant issue, and of course Dave chafing against that, and that tension, both in the studio and particularly onstage and on tour. It would have been good if Ray could have teamed up with a trusted producer to take some of the pressure off him. Then again, he also seemed to thrive creatively at that level. I'm completely down with this era of The Kinks, while recognizing some of the production choices are not to my liking. It was a strange time that saw the band, at least in America, rise to a level of popularity and success they hadn't experienced since the early days.
     
  7. Zeki

    Zeki Forum Resident

    Perhaps. It’s still valid to ask who he means by “these guys.” Ray just said they’d already finished the song (as originally conceived? That’s how I take it). So he’s asking the band to re-do it into a completely different “this sort of song”? Or is he talking about the engineers or mixing people or whomever to seamlessly splice the string section into the existing song?

    No matter, a reasonable follow up question is ‘what do you mean by this sort of song?” And who knows what the reply will be. He might say, “oh, like such-and-such” and name a song from Arthur. I have no idea.
     
  8. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product Thread Starter

    That all sounds pretty straight to me.

    As I say, I would have loved (a) compatible Producer(s) to have been on board, and for me, that would be from about the Everybody's In Showbiz time period at least, I don't see it as a just an Arista thing.

    There is some destabilisation in the bass and keys at this time. Dalton left, Pyle comes in as a temp, but stays for a tour, and is on most of the next album, but a session player finishes it off. Pyle seems to encourage Gosling to leave and they get together for a while.
    Rodford ends up on bass for Low Budget, but stays the distance until the end.
    Gibbons comes on board for One For The Road and stays until just before the last album.

    Although it is somewhat shambolic over this album and the next, in terms of bass and keys, it seems, from looking, that Pyle just wasn't really a compatible member for the band.
    Certainly the Ray and Dave fights, and Dave having some kind of grudge against Avory appear to be the biggest issues the band had..... and I can understand somewhat temporary members, or less recognised members not wanting to hang around for that lol

    Ray's total creative control is somewhat a plus and a minus for the band
     
  9. palisantrancho

    palisantrancho Forum Resident

    It’s not any of these things for me, but I also never said this album was bad. It’s merely not as good as what came before it. They have 15 other albums that I would rather listen to. There is a also a big difference in the 60s and early 70s rock band sound vs a late 70s and early 80s rock band sound. It’s a personal preference and the albums take on a new vibe and style that some of us are not as fond of. The Kinks are not the only band that fall into this situation. Every 60s band became much different by the late 70s, and in my opinion, become a lesser version of their previous self.

    I still love The Kinks and several songs on every upcoming record, but they are not in the same league as everything up until Schoolboys. Many fans lose interest far before that. I get that it can be frustrating to not understand why people don’t like an album you love. I feel the same way about the Preservation albums. How can a Kinks fan not like them? Music is a strange and beautiful thing. People like what they like, and can dislike something that can seem unfathomable to others. There is no use trying to figure out why. The Kinks just gave me 13 years of some of my favorite music ever recorded. At some point there is going to be a drop off where expectations are not what they use to be. For me, that time is now.

    I forgot today was Sunday. I was ready to read the thoughts on the next song!
     
  10. Zeki

    Zeki Forum Resident

    You’re one of the survivors! :D
     
  11. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product Thread Starter

    The recording for Brother was apparently 1-9 July 1976... based on the quote in the post it seems like it was a scenario of adding on an extended ending.
    Listen to the track at 3:20, and we get a ritard, and a tonal resolution .... I get the impression that was originally the end of the song ... It seems like possibly some overdubs and a tacked on ending is what ended up happening.


    As far as "these guys" goes, I just hear that as a reference to the band in an off the cuff manner ... like "this guy" (with sarcastic tone)
    I get the impression "this kind of song" seems to mean a fairly straight forward ode to brotherly love. They had certainly done that kind of thing before, but it wasn't their bread and butter, and ballads were certainly nothing new in the catalog... that's about all I have on it though
     
  12. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product Thread Starter

    That's why I covered that also by saying "The sound of the album is different as we have discussed, and that seems to have as much to do with 1977, new instruments, new mixing desk, and Ray's own want to remodel his approach to the band somewhat"... and I know that is your beef with the album
     
  13. Brian x

    Brian x the beautiful ones are not yet born

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Of Steve Miller Band, Styx, Fleetwood Mac & the other comps mentioned, this one really hits, though I can't pin down exactly why. But "Time To Hide" in particular has a similar "lush" late-mid '70s sound that I keep identifying as seductive.
     
  14. Fortuleo

    Fortuleo Used to be a Forum Resident

    Except the song dedicated to my avatar when he died is a very sweet and sentimental demo, written from a 100% non-political European film lover perspective. Not to be missed!
    Nah, really. Still eight studio Kinks albums to go, and I think they'll give you plenty of enjoyment, a good number of occasions to change your mind and your (and everybody else's) definition of what's kinksian or not. Sleepwalker and Misfits (albeit quite differently from one another) are the only two in that 70's pop radio oriented style. Then Low Budget is a real big turnaround – and not to everybody's taste, let me tell you! I'll advise you stick around (I know you will!), because a lot of big songs – if not consistently great albums – are yet to come.
    So true. And here's the thing. As far as a "song by song" thread is concerned, Sleepwalker was sure to be a dramatic turning point. Up until that record, we got the golden sixties era in which, past the very early covers, almost every song was a stunning little (or massive) masterpiece. Then, as we deep-dived into the concept years, some lesser songs started to appear here and there (though certainly not everywhere), but it was never discouraging, because it was always possible to put them in context. Take @mark winstanley's opening posts every day starting at least with VGPS : they all began by an assessment of where the song fitted in the record and/or the story, what was its purpose, how it worked with the rest etc. It’s not the only approach possible (playlists are also allowed ! :D), but it's given us a chance to appreciate the merits of each individual tracks within the big picture of Ray's grand visions. Every song had two opportunities to be good or valid : it could be good on its own terms, or good at fitting whatever purpose it was meant to fit. Or it could be twice as good if it worked both ways. From Sleepwalker on, it will never be the same again (except for the odd side project or solo record). The criteria will be completely different. Each song will have to be good or bad as a stand alone, liked or not liked, skipped or not skipped. So we'll have good days and bad days, and I expect more disagreements and more debate among us, which is always more challenging for the good spirits of a thread (but maybe also more fun, as @Steve62 suggested). But to quote Clive Davis' pet song, we’re all brothers now, though we don't know each other's names. Some friends are leavin' (like @GarySteel…), but there's – still – so much that we can share ! Together (and under @Mark's guidance) we can find our way. As for me, I’m confident we will, because the balance remains on the right side, for I like a majority (and adore some) of the songs to come.
     
  15. Zeki

    Zeki Forum Resident

    I’ve only skim-listened to Low Budget (a few weeks ago so I’ve already forgotten. But I see I’ve earmarked two tracks). That’s my dialed-down goal; two songs an album. At least I don’t have to anguish over which songs I’m leaving off my playlists due to self-imposed quota limits. :D

    And, yes, I may be grouchy and sound like I’m fit to be tied on occasion (maybe rather soon, too?!) but I’m thoroughly enjoying the thread and, as Mark knows considering we had only three or four regular participants by the end of Heep, I look forward to the daily discussion. Plus I can now discuss the back catalogue with an air of authority!
     
  16. JTemperance

    JTemperance Forum Resident

    Location:
    Philly
    I'm really looking forward to the rest of the thread too! I used to get off the bus as it were at the end of 1977 with the Christmas concerts (hope we'll discuss them a bit!) as that seems like a great line-in-the-sand/farewell to the Gosling and expanded live band era.

    I'm one of those who enjoy Sleepwalker much more than Misfits even if it's hard to articulate why as there are aesthetic and production choices that can be hard to stomach sometimes. "Mr. Big Man" is the first ever Kinks song where I want Dave to put down the guitar, for example. But about half the album is super strong for me, and "Life Goes On" is a perfect way to say goodbye yet again to looking back.

    I've tended to look at 1979-onwards with (much) lowered enjoyment but I'm hoping to take another listen to all these albums with fresh ears. Come to Daddy!
     
  17. Zeki

    Zeki Forum Resident

    Well! First listen to 1981 lp. Now you’re talking. (Only 2 tracks in but am happy as hell.)
     
  18. DISKOJOE

    DISKOJOE Boredom That You Can Afford!

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    "Except the song dedicated to my avatar when he died is a very sweet and sentimental demo, written from a 100% non-political European film lover perspective. Not to be missed!'

    You're right Fortuleo, sorry about that!
     
  19. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product Thread Starter

    For sure. We'll get there, but the general thing that seems to come from that album is the band went into the studio after a very successful tour, full of enthusiasm and the energy carries into the album
     
  20. LX200GPS

    LX200GPS Forum Resident

    Location:
    Somewhere Else
    I don't think he means punk rockers. I always thought he sang 'I was standing with the punks in Greek Street", not Praed Street. And, Greek Street is a more believable location for the lyric describing what happens next.
     
  21. Vangro

    Vangro Forum Resident

    Location:
    London
    Yes, I'm not sure it's about punk rockers, as such, either and Greek Street seems much more likely.
     
  22. LX200GPS

    LX200GPS Forum Resident

    Location:
    Somewhere Else
    Don't forget poor Andy Pyle. He had a torrid time with the two brothers.
     
  23. LX200GPS

    LX200GPS Forum Resident

    Location:
    Somewhere Else
    As you know, Soho, where Greek Street is located, used to be a very seedy area before it was cleaned up for the tourists. Hookers, strip clubs, X rated shows and movies, and other goings on were what attracted certain people to the area. So Ray singing about being propositioned there is consistent with that.

    I used to live near Paddington, worked in Praed Street but never considered it a shady area. Worked there just after the album's release but perhaps it too had been cleaned up by then.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2022
  24. Vangro

    Vangro Forum Resident

    Location:
    London
    Also a big gay scene of course. I was actually in Soho on Saturday, hadn't been there for years!
     
  25. Martyj

    Martyj Who dares to wake me from my slumber? -- Mr. Flash

    Location:
    Maryland, USA
    I had to step away from this thread for a while. Some times life interferes and there isn’t much room for internet forums, fun though they may be.

    But…I’m back

    I had been looking forward to last weekend’s discussions of the RCA- to-Arista evolution. I had been formulating some thoughts that I planned to share in a pre-written essay, but that ship has sailed, we’ve moved on, and there is not much point for me to bend backward as I am sure many of the opinions I wished to raise were covered by other avids. (I tried ONCE this past week to read and catch up, but there is just too much.)

    So I’ll just throw out my overall theme without embellishment: with the commencement of the post-Pye/RCA era, the Kinks cease to be an important band.

    That’s not to say they do not continue to create terrific, enjoyable music. I like Sleepwalker, Misfits, etc. It's a new path and they follow it generally without embarrassing themselves. Every so often they recapture the old magic. But..it’s just not important music anymore when measured against the artists 1977-1994 who were creating important works. That wasn’t the case between 1964-76 when the Kinks were side by side with the relevant artists. It makes me sad this happened, but, ten-plus years as significant creatives is longer than most artists achieve, so I celebrate that.

    Anyway…onward….

    Yeah, that was in Hinmans book, too. When I read it there my thought was, regardless of Clive Davis' reasons, it is exhibit "A" where the demotion of the Kinks as an important band begins: the person entrusted with directing the bands fortunes doesn't appreciate that--sacrosanct to the Kinks importance--is that the Kinks are Ray Davies, songwriter.
     

Share This Page

molar-endocrine