Tired of the Technics vs Rega Turntable debate?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by AKA-Chuck G, Dec 22, 2020.

  1. edd2b

    edd2b Forum Resident

    Location:
    West Country UK
    I will put to you another case; would you buy a turntable that measures very well, but sounds poor or unpleasant for whatever reason in preference to a turntable that measures poorly, but has a pleasant sound you could live with in spite of some minor speed errors? :evil:
     
  2. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    I kid, I kid :)

    [​IMG]
     
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  3. JP

    JP Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brookfield, CT
    Many people say this for many reasons. Which are yours?
     
  4. Randoms

    Randoms Aerie Faerie Nonsense

    Location:
    UK
    Half a million for Rega owners and the rest of the 100 million for DD owners, who seem more interested in bashing Rega rather than enjoying their own turntable? Absolutely fitting for @AKA-Chuck G's thread

    I kid, I kid. :winkgrin:
     
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  5. Randoms

    Randoms Aerie Faerie Nonsense

    Location:
    UK
    Because there is a heck of a difference between Technics printed specifications which quote both the standard and the weighting used and that baloney, which is arguably more dishonest than a manufacturer publishing no figures. It is written in such a way to mimic Technics' (lab) figures.

    A lifetime ago I was a Calibration Engineer, so would suggest that published specifications taken using different standards, and in this instance, no printed standard and weighting, are totally irrelevant and shouldn't be used by the "rubber band" bashers.

    Even when published correctly, the Japanese JIS standard figures (shown with weighting) are not directly comparable to the European (German) DIN standard shown with weighting.

    Just in case there is any doubt, I believe that both Technics and Rega manufacture turntables that make playing records a very enjoyable experience.
     
  6. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    Apologies since I've not read this whole thread, but I like turntables and have had a few good ones. What else is available at so-called entry level with a decent arm? Those two brands seem to come up in discussions the most, no?
    I have one very high end table, high mass with air compressor driven lateral arm, and a vintage Technics that I bought new in 1973 (and had refurbished by Bill Thalmann). Both are good. If you are going to spend big, you have more alternatives, but I'm not sure that you are choosing sonic performance over some perceived benefit that may or may not be important in reality.
    There are good belt, idler (if you are after that sound) and direct drive (also sounds different) tables. Arms are a different matter and there, you also need to consider not just the cartridge, but what you need out of a tonearm.
    Maybe I'm just ambivalent about the subject, but what price point are you talking about, and what are the alternatives?
     
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  7. Randoms

    Randoms Aerie Faerie Nonsense

    Location:
    UK
    Despite formerly being a Calibration Engineer, the function I bought a turntable for was - playing records. BUT, Rega Planar 6 measurements!

    The thread was before the introduction of the EBLT belts from Rega last year, though @The FRiNgE's post #29 is possibly of interest to @JP.

    I have recommended to friends who have asked, that they should listen to both Technics and Rega, which both play records very well! In my retail days I sold by demonstration, not recommendation and that is my advice still today. Even measurements taken from properly calibrated test equipment, with a recognised Standard and showing weighting and if peak measurement, simply cannot tell you how a product sounds.

    If I was asked for a recommendation, I would only recommend something that I could demonstrate that sounded better! If you wanted a better sound, unfortunately it cost more money. I could not see the point of stocking a more costly product that was outperformed by a cheaper one - even if it did get a rave (full page, colour advert!), flavour of the month review.

    Happy listening to all.

    Edit. Obviously we don't all have the same preferences, which is why actually listening for ourselves is so important.
     
  8. Daniel Thomas

    Daniel Thomas Forum Resident

    I'm very surprised that a Technics vs Rega thread even exists anymore. Is this ancient rivalry still going on? That can't be true. Both brands are outstanding and any respectable audiophile will love both equally. It's interesting that this topic even came up, as I actually bought a Rega turntable last year from Ebay. I think it was one of the older P6 models with green gloss plinth. Unfortunately, the seller (a hi-fi shop from Denver) discovered that the unit was damaged in the warehouse and we called the whole thing off. In the end, I picked up a Tec-12 Mark 7 and love it to pieces. But I'd also be just as thrilled to have a Rega deck. Indeed, Saturday Audio Exchange has a really super sweet P6 in their showroom and it's just glorious. But $1500-$2000 was a little rich for my blood.

    Again, both brands are among the very best and all that matters is the music. And having a turntable that sounds better than CD. Hah! Just kidding. Sorta.
     
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  9. Randoms

    Randoms Aerie Faerie Nonsense

    Location:
    UK
    @Daniel Thomas, your independent, open-minded and open-eared approach is ruining these threads!! :whistle:
     
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  10. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    That should never have had to have been done. Linn didn't need to even the first ones, Thorens didn't ever need to, Empire didn't need to. Micro-Seiki sure didn't need that either. Even a Pioneer PL-512 didn't have to either, for less than $150 new in the day. AR had no issues with it either (at under $100 new until 1978). None of these had to be upgraded to play a record at correct speed, without audible micro-wavering. All the above could and still can pass the held acoustic piano chord, or held acoustic guitar chord test without issues in good, well maintained condition. Note, even Technics belt drives in good order can pass this test (and those are the economy models). This should show you I am not anti belt drive in any way.
     
  11. JP

    JP Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brookfield, CT
    Even Technics listed FG W&F for many units, only denoting WRMS, so no idea what weighting was used. We can assume JIS if we want to, but of course they couldn't say it was JIS or any other standard, as the standards specify criteria that an FG measurement can't meet. Bit of a pickle when you're trying to out-spec the next guy using antiquated standards with measurement floors far above the performance of the DUT, that can't be applied to the most obvious alternate measurement method for which no standard(s) exist.

    There isn't a linear relationship between W&F% and the maximum deviation of test signal fundamental, which I believe is what the poster is trying to imply (no references, and no standards listed, so I don't know). The quoted passage in that post is probably the best example of baloney W&F figures in recent discussion, though.
     
  12. Big Blue

    Big Blue Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Yeah, I bought my turntable for playing records, too. What a silly thing to point out. What I require is that it plays records correctly, at an accurate and steady speed, so the music plays the way it is supposed to. How it “sounds” does not matter if the pitch is incorrect or wavering.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2022
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  13. Randoms

    Randoms Aerie Faerie Nonsense

    Location:
    UK
    I have seen a Technics spec somewhere, which was to a current Japanese standard and showed the weighting. What the figure actually was, held no interest to me whatsoever, partly for the reasons you mention and surely a turntable function is to play real records, often through loudspeakers... Of course there are real records which are perfectly flat and perfectly centred on both sides, but sadly a long way from all.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2022
  14. JP

    JP Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brookfield, CT
    Some folks needs that to happen as accurately as possible, other's don't. Those that do, on equipment that is capable, need to utilize a better method than a test record to accomplish that goal.
     
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  15. Randoms

    Randoms Aerie Faerie Nonsense

    Location:
    UK
    So you could be perfectly happy with a post 2016 Planar 6, 8 or 10 and even more so with last year's EBLT belts fitted?

    I am in no way knocking Technics, who have a very good drive system and excellent performance and you may prefer listening to a record played on a Technics rather than one played on a Rega, really what I am saying is simply that most of the Rega knocking, is based on outdated information.

    I completely agree with your comments about correct speed, but the wavering on Regas disappeared when the motor mounting was changed - even the Planar 1 has a new 24v motor aluminium pulley and Advanced EBLT belt.

    I continue to happily recommend friends audition both Rega and Technics (amongst others) - which they prefer is only of passing interest, but I would hope they were delighted with their purchase.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2022
  16. Big Blue

    Big Blue Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wisconsin
    In terms of speed stability, if the EBLT does actually achieve it, then I probably could. There are other reasons I do not think a Rega turntable would be my preference, though.

    It’s actually based on a lack of information, which Rega should provide, if they have something satisfactory to report on that spec.

    The problem in this, for me, comes when the pitch wavering doesn’t show up during audition but rears its irritating head at some point after I’ve paid for and installed the turntable. I do expect this is less likely to happen with a P6 or better, but Rega could do themselves a huge favor by just publishing a spec. I understand published specs are not infallible, but they at least constitute a manufacturer making a substantiated claim about performance. The fact that Rega is unwilling to do so puts me off.
     
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  17. Roland Bart

    Roland Bart French doctor

    Location:
    France
    I think that the lack of humor is probably the worst thing in these threads.
     
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  18. vwestlife

    vwestlife Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Jersey, USA
    The big question is, why did it take until 2016 for Rega to figure out how to make a belt that can hold a stable and accurate speed?
     
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  19. Morbius

    Morbius Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brookline, MA
    It only proves how mean spirited most of these people are!
     
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  20. Randoms

    Randoms Aerie Faerie Nonsense

    Location:
    UK
    The cynic in me is that Rega have improved their turntables in recent years because of both the measured and subjective abilities of the Technics turntables since their reintroduction to the market - they are very good indeed and at given price points,m well be the only turntable a number of music lovers may ever need.

    Roy may also have gained a lot of knowledge during the development of the Naiad and the use of new materials - the rubber band part of scrubber band turntable is an absolutely crucial component. Rega_drive_belt_design_history_2021.pdf
     
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  21. edd2b

    edd2b Forum Resident

    Location:
    West Country UK
    Yeah! Maybe that’s why I can’t help having a dig at some who make out like it’s a crime to keep trying to improve your existing belt drive design, but who then lavish praise when Technics do it! I guess that’s what comes from just staring at spec sheets instead of using your ears. :laugh:

    Meanwhile I have been tweaking my soon to be lovely sounding, but hopelessly poor speed controlled belt drive devices because I’m weird and I can! :winkgrin: I carved a solid wood plate insert to fit inside the alloy sub chassis of my Systemdek IIX. This has cut outs for all the existing fittings and is held to the underside by small screws from above. I will also experiment with the tension of the fixing screws and possibly just glue the plate in place because everything makes a difference. I also carved a new arm board from the same 30 year old seasoned hardwood slab, but I may change this to solid ‘aluminium’, or ‘aluminum’. Fitted with just a cheapo Jelco arm and bargain basement AT110 MM the results were impressive with a lovely rich soundstage and quiet background that is quite an improvement on the standard deck. Next I’ll try the 2m Blue, then Corus Black, and maybe the Ittok arm. Ideally it needs a speed control box to get up there with top players, but it still proves that improved SQ can come from building a more solid plinth even before upgrading arm, cartridge or motor drive. :agree:

    Incidentally, I started the Systemdek mods in addition to my other projects because a friend is going through cancer treatment and was planning to invest in a turntable. I promised to lend him a deck to try and to give him something to listen to through his recovery phase. I just got carried away. I’m sure that he will enjoy it even without perfect pitch! :agree:
     
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  22. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    The bare minimum for Rega to function best is Planar 3 level, or higher. Otherwise, they need their upgrades to get there. The lower the Rega model, the more upgrades necessary to get performance to decent. Let's at least meet each other halfway on this.
     
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  23. Randoms

    Randoms Aerie Faerie Nonsense

    Location:
    UK
    I have always tented to agree with this, but since the improvements to the Planar 1 in the last couple of years, especially with the fitting of the Advanced EBLT belts is actually pretty decent.

    Personally I wouldn't upgrade a Planar 1, or Planar 2, except for to an EBLT drive belt and cartridge, say up to £200 and would part-exchange against a Planar 3, or preferably Planar 6 OR Technics SL-1200GR depending on audition.

    If I owned an eighties or nineties Planar 3 (stock with RB300) and came into some money, again I would ideally go to the Planar 6 / 1200GR level. If that was too costly, I'd upgrade the belt, then the motor and finally add the NEO.

    I could happily live with an Planar 3 / RB300 / NEO / AT VM95ML, or a SL-1200GR / AT VM95ML.

    I have no problem with the recent Technics turntables, just fundamentally disagree with the Rega bashing.

    Sincerely, happy listening to all.
     
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  24. Randoms

    Randoms Aerie Faerie Nonsense

    Location:
    UK
    Whilst we all have different expectation levels, and Rega themselves see the Planar 1 as their fifth tier record player, it is probably better than what 99%+ of music listeners have heard.

    Maybe @KT88 can tell us exactly when the Rega Planar 1 was updated, but in the UK, where else can you buy a turntable, with a lifetime warranty, for £299?
     
  25. BrentB

    BrentB Urban Angler

    Location:
    Midwestern US
    Remember that some people have not gotten over the Ford Pintos or the Chevy Vegas either. And that was MUCH longer ago.
    Also remember that many here at the forum (especially DIY types as myself) prefer to buy older equipment. Much older than 2016. Does last year's belts fit those and correct speed issues? I honestly have no idea, but would like to know more.
     

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