Recommendations- Building a Benny Goodman Collection

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Ponso1966, Mar 2, 2019.

  1. LeeP

    LeeP Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    Yes. The set actually starts with 2 Webb records from 1929 and then 3 from 31, before moving to the Decca period in 1934. There are 8 Decca tracks, before Ella Fitzgerald joined in 1935. Also, Chick Webb died in June of 1939, so the rest of the box covers the period where she lead the band until 1941. And, the set does meet Mosaic's high standards.
     
  2. misterjones

    misterjones Smarter than the average bear.

    Location:
    New York, NY
    I have the Proper Webb box, which is very good collection but no doubt inferior to the Mosaic box (and less complete).

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
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  3. ella_swings

    ella_swings Forum Resident

    This looks interesting. How does it sound?
     
  4. misterjones

    misterjones Smarter than the average bear.

    Location:
    New York, NY
    I've been meaning to give it another listen. After listening to the Fitzgerald-Webb Decca singles on Spotify (Digital only, I think), which sound pretty good, I might get a better idea than before. (Though many poo-poo streaming services, I think the SQ on Spotify is excellent.)

    [​IMG]
     
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  5. ella_swings

    ella_swings Forum Resident

    I listen to these through Apple Music and have a similar view... pretty good. Not nearly as bad as typical streamed tracks from that era. These I'm sure are only digital. I've checked and checked for a physical set. My only issue with the Webb-Fitzgerald recordings is that I don't think I've seen a single alternate take ever surface. And after the Universal fire in 2008, were there any, they're gone now.
     
  6. misterjones

    misterjones Smarter than the average bear.

    Location:
    New York, NY
    The Proper box is just fine. No different than the other perfectly acceptable boxes they issue. But I would not consider the sound top notch. I think the Decca Singles digital series sounds noticeably better - more clarity and presence. I'm sure the Mosaic does, as well.
     
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  7. ella_swings

    ella_swings Forum Resident

    I haven’t seen any alternate takes listed anywhere, but haven’t had a physical copy in hand. Do you know if there are any in the Mosaic set?
     
  8. misterjones

    misterjones Smarter than the average bear.

    Location:
    New York, NY
    I think the Webb-Fitzgerald set is the only OOP Mosaic box I’d buy if it was reissued. Current prices are an indication of lack of supply, which in turn shows that very few want to part with theirs.
     
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  9. Tribute

    Tribute Senior Member

    You should check the Jazz Record Center in NYC. He has many Mosaic titles, and they come in frequently.
     
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  10. LeeP

    LeeP Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    On the Mosaic set:

    There is a previously unreleased title, “Love, You’re Just a Laugh” 4/7/36, Fitzgerald vocal.

    There are A and B takes, all with Fitzgerald vocals, of:

    “(If You Can’t Sing It) You’ll Have to Swing It” 10/29/36, (B Dec GRD 2-618 (CD), and A Dec 1032).

    “You Showed Me the Way.” 3/24/37, (A and B takes Dec 1220).

    If You Ever Should Leave” 3/24/37, (A and B takes Dec 1302).

    “I Want to Be Happy” 12/17/37 (B Dec (Aus) Z778 and A Dec 15039 12”)

    “You Can’t Be Mine” 5/3/38 (B Dec GRD-2 618 (CD) and A Dec 1806)

    And from 3/20/40 an “Untitled Instrumental” released on Merritt 25 (LP).
     
  11. ella_swings

    ella_swings Forum Resident

    Outstanding info! Thanks.
     
  12. ella_swings

    ella_swings Forum Resident

    Back to Benny...
    I've been doing a little digging (and a little buying) on my very favorite and very underrated Goodman track Sing Me a Swing Song (and Let Me Dance). Seems like it was just a "hit of the week", and clearly got little to no traction in the popular market*. Wingy Mannone recorded it first on 05/08/36, followed shortly by Goodman on 05/27/36. Finally, Chick Webb and Ella Fitzgerald put it to wax on 06/02/36. Decca pressed it on Decca 830 and brought it back again for the Chick Webb Memorial Album - Decca 3319. (Click dates for links to archive.org 78 recordings). It's exceptionally rare for me to prefer anyone over Fitzgerald, but on this track it's Helen Ward all the way. If you come across another version, please let post it here.

    *Note: I guess for 1936 a spread of May 8 for the first version to June 2 for the last might, in fact, represent a "hit of the week". Clearly bands were closely watching each other and trying to get the scoop on each other - that we know well. And RCA was playing the market seeing if Mannone could hit on Bluebird while Goodman tried on Victor.
     
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  13. misterjones

    misterjones Smarter than the average bear.

    Location:
    New York, NY
    I always thought it was an interesting, even odd, departure for the laid back Hoagy Carmichael.
     
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  14. ella_swings

    ella_swings Forum Resident

    Anyone know what happened to Loren's latest Youtube series on the Goodman small group recordings on Victor? It's been three months since he posted a new video. I hope everything is okay and they get back to it. I really enjoy it (and the previous series too!).
     
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  15. Discog Dave

    Discog Dave Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Rochester NY USA
    Episode 11 has arrived.
     
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  16. ella_swings

    ella_swings Forum Resident

    Thanks Dave! Watching it tonight.
     
  17. ella_swings

    ella_swings Forum Resident

    I swear this set looks familiar, but I just can't place it. I'm going through my vinyl and CDs to no avail. Any guesses?
    [​IMG]
    1 Cookin' One Up
    2 Swedish Pastry
    3 All the Things You Are
    4 Mary's Idea
    5 Swedish Pastry
    6 After You've Gone
    7 Bye Bye Pretty Baby
    8 Mary's Idea
    9 Mel's Idea
    10 Bye Bye Pretty Baby
    11 Mel's Idea
    12 (Back Home Again in) Indiana
    13 Bye Bye Blues
    14 Limehouse Blues
    15 Donna Lee
    16 Bye Bye Blues
    17 Mel's Idea
    18 Donna Lee
    19 Swedish Pastry
    20 Lullaby in Rhythm
     
  18. Looks like a DRAGON IMHO.----> try DISCOGS

    Found it there

    Label: Dragon (8) – DRCD 183
    Format:
    CD, Compilation, Mono
    Country: Sweden
    Released: 1992
    Genre: Jazz
    Style: Swing, Bop
     
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  19. ella_swings

    ella_swings Forum Resident

    Yes, it looks like this, but with more tracks.
    [​IMG]
     
  20. Odradek

    Odradek Forum Resident

    Location:
    Helsinki, Finland
    The 78-era Universal masters, some 200,000 of them, were donated by Universal to the Library of Congress in 2011, as was reported widely at the time. For that to have been possible, they of course cannot have been destroyed in the 2008 fire, so the fire seems to have concerned tape-era material.

    And journalistic coverage of the donation explicitly mentions its consisting largely of original masters ("metal, glass and lacquer master discs") and not, for instance, tape copies of same. See, for instance:

    Library Of Congress Receives Largest Single Audio Donation
    Universal Music Group Donates a "Mile of Music" to the Library of Congress : History of Information
     
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  21. ella_swings

    ella_swings Forum Resident

    This is a good point, but it's still not clear what was donated and which artists entire catalogs verses partial catalogs were donated. There were numerous stories about the Universal fire at the time indicating that a significant portion of original material was destroyed in the fire. I assume for legal reasons Universal has been completely silent on what was destroyed and what remains. I would guess that based on what has leaked out or have been part of lawsuits that it was tape masters from the 50s and 60s. One can only hope, until LoC completely inventories and publishes the list (which they will do, if they haven't already) that none of the 78-era masters were still in that building.

    But, there is an important corollary to consider about the fire. RCA destroyed Goodman's metal parts in the 50s(?) and transferred them to tapes. While RCA material isn't part of Universal, that same process could have been done to any number of Universal labels and we wouldn't really know it. Thus tapes of the master parts could have burned. I distinctly recall the list of artists' original materials consumed in the fire including Ella Fitzgerald, Louis Armstrong, and Billie Holiday. Part of their masters would have been 78-era metal parts and others would have been tape. I don't know the exact year Decca switched but it certainly spanned all of these artists' careers. So it's probably true for the Webb-Fitzgerald recordings (that they made it to LoC). But who knows if any of Universal's labels followed RCA in the 50s and taped 78 masters in order to destroy the original metal. I hope the someone who knows such picayune details might still be alive and shed light on archive maintenance. Or LoC releases the database of what it has (off to search the internet now!).

    As an aside, the first link makes a point that has been hard for me to convince other collectors of back-catalog music about:
    As much as I love Goodman or Fitzgerald or Motown, this is a sad fact of the business and why I don't think we'll see many more Goodman releases. It would take Congress funding the LoC for them to have the resources to release anything from these masters. My guess is they will never see a commercial, or even public, release ever again. I hope I'm wrong.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2022
  22. ella_swings

    ella_swings Forum Resident

    Edit: Yay! I was wrong. Partnership of Library of Congress and Universal Music Group Will Put Newly Digitized Music Online — VR Research - Public Records Research | Opposition Research
    Searching here Recorded Sound Research Center (Motion Picture, Broadcasting and Recorded Sound Division, Library of Congress) to see if anything is available.
     
  23. misterjones

    misterjones Smarter than the average bear.

    Location:
    New York, NY
    If the US government is involved, you’ll be lucky to see (actually, hear) anything in the next 50 years. And I doubt Universal will issue anything. They’ll be happy with their tax deduction and leave it at that.
     
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  24. Odradek

    Odradek Forum Resident

    Location:
    Helsinki, Finland
    My understanding from everything I've read is that either everything recorded in the pre-tape era, or everything recorded prior to some cut-off date close to the transition to tape recording, was donated wholesale, with no weeding of any kind.

    Now the basic point is that 200,000 is simply a huge amount of masters. Looking at Michel Ruppli's The Decca Labels: A Discography, prior to the second AFM recording ban in 1948, Decca had recorded approximately 15,000 masters in New York, Chicago and Nashville; 4,800 in Los Angeles; 1,000 in various southern locations; and a negligible amount at a number of other locations, such as the Caribbean. Even presupposing that all these Decca masters have survived, that would still only be enough to cover little more than one tenth of the Universal donation. Pessimistic estimates of what's in there need to give an alternative account of what else the 200,000 masters can consist of, if it's not the likes of Decca masters. All the thousands of worn-out metal parts for Bing Crosby's "White Christmas" which they decided to warehouse as keepsakes?

    I just looked at the booklet of the Fitzgerald-Webb Mosaic box, and in fact it mentions that the sources used for it were 78s and earlier CDs (for which it gives a track-by-track listing), since "the metal parts were not made available to us (they have yet to be unpacked and catalogued at their new home in the Library of Congress)". So the absence of alternative takes from there would seem to indicate nothing at all.
     
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  25. ella_swings

    ella_swings Forum Resident

    This is great information. Thanks for updating my understanding of the situation. I’m already finding links to UMG as a source in the LoC archive. I have been despondent thinking of our cultural heritage lost in that and other events. This new understanding makes me less despondent. Always a good thing!!!
     
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