The Who’s ‘Tommy’ - New 2022 Half-Speed Remaster

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Benn Kempster, May 11, 2022.

  1. Jrr

    Jrr Forum Resident

    First, I think your post is very fair. Sometimes this stuff is awfully subjective, so it’s hard to really know who’s “right.” Whatever that means. But noisy vinyl isn’t subjective…I’ve clearly been lucky. You and I have likely about the same experience with all of this. You have maybe a two year jump on buying MFSL vinyl; I am 61 so wasn’t quite ready to drop $25 on a record back then. But I caught up fast, starting round 1983, and “fell for” even the CBS Half Speeds back in the day, as I’m sure you did. My apologies if I made it sound in any way like my opinion is more valid…I would say you are more than qualified to render an accurate analysis!

    That said, so far I have never had a bad MFSL pressing, but I concur I’m not totally happy with the mastering on every one of them. But I’ll take a flyer on anything from them far before a label such as Friday Music, who are far more miss than hit. And yes, it didn’t occur to me you didn’t necessarily infer you were buying any product because it’s half speed. Since neither of us truly knows how effective this half speed mastering hype is, I think we might have to both concede that it plays into some people’s minds who believe what they read if it’s on a label. I think that’s an awful lot of folks, unfortunately, based on the big deal made about it on labels plastered on the covers.

    Like you, I’m sure, I have done actual comparisons when possible. And also as you know, that ain’t easy because you really have to have exact protocols in place to make an accurate opinion. The ONLY album I have that has like attributes (and it wasn’t half speed mastering so that doesn’t even come into play) is the Rumours album our host did. I won’t go on yet again about what opinions I had, but in short it kinda blew the theory (only for me) of whether 45 was better than 33. I couldn’t hear any, and a lot of others have said the same, but I absolutely believe those that swear there is. Bottom line for me is: there just can’t be all that much. If there was, it would be more audible. I understand the science, it makes sense…but on my pretty decent system I couldn’t discern any. So, another hype that I think is at least a bit overblown though I admit there probably is a subtle difference or there wouldn’t be so many defenders here.

    So no, I really try not to arbitrarily dismiss anything. I want the very best sounding piece of vinyl possible for my favorite albums, and I don’t think you can achieve that if you aren’t open to opinions from others like yourself, that has the experience I can trust. On the half speed, there isn’t even a good consensus amount the mastering engineers on whether there is a benefit, but I think companies slapping stickers on the album covers have found that people have drunk the kool aid. So, for me I don’t buy either way based on that. It does tell me that, at the very least, care was likely put into the mastering, and it’s probably a decent pressing. And that’s at least something! And every label has duds, no? So, you can’t really 100% trust any of them, just some more than others. For me, I will always give MFSL, Classic, Speakers Corner (a big fan of their’s) and AP a shot. Friday Music, and now (unfortunately, Abbey Road….they clearly have access to a lot of labels and it’s disappointing I can’t trust them now) and a couple others, I want to read opinions on here first. It’s too bad about Friday: they have some outstanding mastering and pressings. But 85% of what I’ve heard was just okay, or worse.
     
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  2. bob fett

    bob fett Well-Known Member

    Location:
    valley forge, pa.
    I haven't read anything about it being a remix, and I'm no expert on that subject, but it came with a stamped and serial numbered "Remastered Certificate of Authenticity" which works for me. My thinking is that the lead vocals are similar to the 2 or 3 different CD/file issues I have, and everything else sounds "punchy & fresh" :p
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2022
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  3. 4-2-7

    4-2-7 Forum Resident

    Location:
    SF Peninsula
    First off nice post Jrr, thanks

    There is no right or wrong and what some like others don't, that's cool and the way is should be. For one thing with records none of our systems all play them the same anyway, people need to know this as well. I'm also of the mind that all records are different and I like most records, not necessarily garbage if they differ, they are just different. Sure there can be some absolutely awful records even before any comparing, be it the mastering or pressing. But really that's not the case with 95% of the records we buy, most the time it's a old Bootleg, Pickwick, or K-Tell, but it might still find a home in my collection because it's a record.

    I'll be 61 come October, but I was buying all kinds of records in High School and as a young adult. Back in the 80s sure they were advertising HS mastering & Digitally Remastered catalogues of big artist that were big a decade prior. I also remember records started to sound better around 1978 and up, I credit that to digital in the recording and mastering in some cases and some on performance virgin vinyl. As well as better equipment to work with, be it instruments or electronics. I'll get into this a bit later.

    There are some records I'll avoid Friday is one of them sometimes, I used to avoid Sundazed and Rhino Records until they started to get pressing work done at QRP. Also look at how many cheap records KPG, RKS are doing these days. But sometimes with new records you don't have a big choice, if you want a new Thin Lizzy record you get Friday Music.

    People read way way to much about records today and yes it plays on their bias, their perception of what they think they hear. Hell I would love to get some so called golden ears who thinks digital used to make a record sounds bad and sit them in front of my system and play records for them. If they were not reading the info, they wouldn't have a clue, just what sounds good is good and what doesn't doesn't. This can be all analog or all digital, they both can sound fantastic and both like garbage.

    I have multiple identical tables set up the same in my main system, all I have to do it to cue one down and the other up and listen to them side by side. However some/most the time it's not all that important to me. I might have the top three Audiophile pressing of a same title along with veriuse older pressings, none of them really have to be better to me to own them. However if I'm spending $135, $15o a record and one that cost me $40 sound better to me, I will question what they are charging me for. You have seen my postings in the MFSL thread so nuff said.

    Just as above, I like owning the best records I can get my hands on, but intermediate records I like also. Some people read to much and their whole opinion is based on that when listening to records, as well as the price. I really don't care, I buy them all, I like mostly all of them so I can listen without bias because nothing has to be a winner. You see people do this with equipment also, "well damn I just spent $2000 it's better than my old unit that cost $200.

    Best not to and best to listen for yourself. I find out of records and equipment it's best for me to listen, if nothing else it builds a reference point. At least I gave it a try and I could be pleasantly surprised. It's also in my library, someone comes over and ask, what's the difference between x, y and z, I can say why don't you have a listen and judge for yourself.
    Yes and no, you already know I don't think there is a best, I like all records and willing to own them all. I can say what I might like better, but really does that tell you what you'll like better? I don't think anyone can tell me what I'll like better, just me listening tells me that. I can say if something is total junk and if I feel the price is too high for it. But really sometimes with records we're splitting hairs, if you only want one copy you should do the splitting for yourself.

    Well I've already addressed this, info on records should only be a guideline and nothing is absolute. I wish the info would kinda be eliminated just because people are letting it be their ears for them. I mean really what the hell does mastered from the original tapes really tell you?
    Back in the day we had so many crappy records come out with those tapes. We had garbage records produced that were all analog and thrown them in the trash as soon as we heard them.

    The thing is time changes everything, label I once avoided are now pretty damn good. So are the ones that where top of the line have been disappointing me and not keeping up with other labels trying to make better records.

    Jrr, do you like Sade?
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2022
    Jrr likes this.
  4. Jrr

    Jrr Forum Resident

    First, I like Sade enough that I own her debut, and the Sony two disc compilation. I’m not super familiar with her entire output though, but from hanging out here I know her recordings are well regarded. I really don’t know why I haven’t spent more time with her material. I like what I know of her.

    Thank you for all your above comments. If nothing else, maybe newer audiophiles will learn a few things! I laughed when I saw you mention K-tel. I started buying those records from just about day one! My parents would usually get me the current title for a birthday or Christmas gift. You have to admit, if you had limited funds that was a great way to get 18-20 hit songs at a whack! My stereo was a GE fold up record player called a Wild Cat. Not exactly audiophile listening. Complete with a ceramic cartridge and an arm that had to weigh 5 grams. I still have some records played on it (Partridge Family anyone?) and geez, my big 45 collection, along with the few albums that have survived after all these years, barely have any grooves left. Those Wildcats were worse on records than today’s Crosleys. But it was good enough I could still hear how bad those K-Tel records sounded, but it also supported my love for music. Thank heavens my dad got me some real stereo equipment at 13. I have about 75 K-tel albums for nostalgic sake, and I still play them as background music on occasion. When they changed the label style, they also got a lot more serious about making them sound better, and using the full versions of the songs. They even mentioned on the back that they were using the best sources labels would give them, and some from the late 70’s onwards can sound pretty darn decent if they have 12 or less songs, and you luck out on a good pressing.

    So yes, you are 100% right that all the labels can have good and bad sounding albums. And let’s face it, some groups are simply not known for stellar sound so if Friday Music puts out a Survivor comp, which they did, you aren’t getting it for awesome sonics so the label hardly matters. Guess how I know! But the Earth, Wind & Fire hits album is incredible, if not a bit pricey. The REO Speedwagon is easily the best I’ve heard that overly bright album sound…same with the Heart S/T album, also normally way too bright. Friday Music has a place! I have the Spinners comp, which is very decent, but then the Carly Simon comp is terrible. I have an Elektra pressing that is all the way an audiophile listen, and I don’t know how they pulled that off given it’s a comp album. I think I bought ten before I hit the jackpot on that one. Elton John Hits 2. Notoriously bad on the domestic MCA pressing. But my local store had a sealed vintage copy for $5. I figured, why not? All ten songs sound better than they do on his parent albums (except for the beautifully first edition represses we got a few years ago). Again, no idea how MCA pulled that off. It is on the sky blue MCA label, and a lot of that is garbage, just like the black rainbow junk from the 70’s. I owned a record store in the 80’s, and remember how bad that MCA stuff often was. So, again, you never know.

    Point being…there are no rules in this business, which is what I think your point was. You have to buy the stuff you like, and hope for the best. If you follow some guidelines, you surely increase your odds on getting something that will bring a smile to your face. And I too have bought a $100 album, only to find the $5 copy sounded better. Is that part of the fun? Well, just maybe it is!
     
  5. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    Sleeve City makes oversized 5ml sleeves. I don't have this LP (nor do I plan to get it) so I can't say for certain the Sleeve City oversized outer sleeves will fit, but I don't recall any non-box 2LP or 3LP sets which have been too big for them.
     
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  6. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    Are you kidding? Have you seen how many posters on this forum (and others) get excited and automatically assume a pressing will be audiophile quality because it is going to be "half-speed mastered"? I had a conversation not long with one of the folks who runs my local and he was touting some LP solely because it was half-speed master (I can't remember the LP right now , but it was one generally panned here). This person is almost certainly seen as a credible expert by many record buyers.

    I just got into it with someone a day or two ago who was convinced heavier vinyl is better because...it can withstand abuse and twisting better.

    Hell, forty years after-the-fact, lots of folks here still into the old MFSL hype machine.

    Never underestimate the willingness of people to buy into marketing hype and exercise confirmation bias.
     
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  7. DK Pete

    DK Pete Forum Resident

    Location:
    Levittown. NY
    Half speed mastering quality results are a mixed bag like any other “audiophile process”. And the fact that an album is 180g means nothing from nothing other than the fact that it looks and feels cool in your hands. I have to admit that years ago I was one of those poor suckers who fell for a lot of “it”. Now I take my time, wait for assessments and still, remain very cynically cautious. Sometimes I get lucky and it’s money well spent. Others it becomes a head shaking shoulder-shrug and try to just tolerate the fact that I just flushed thirty bucks down the toilet.
     
  8. RogerE

    RogerE Rambo, the world famous squirrel, says yeah!

    Location:
    Frankfurt, Germany
    ups...
    I totally forgot to mention my wonderful set of Peter Gabriel 33's...
     
  9. 4-2-7

    4-2-7 Forum Resident

    Location:
    SF Peninsula
    No I'm not kidding, your more than welcome to show me, post a link if you want.

    I have seen it in the MFSL/One Step threads, people are constantly saying how they are buying the record because it will be the best ever made before ever hearing it. Or they say they are buying it, but never heard the music before, nore have a copy of it. Basically they are buying it because it's MFSL, One Step, AAA or Super Vinyl, if they end up liking the music that would be a plus. They also say if they don't like the music they can sell the record later.

    I have never seen that with any of these Abbey Road records. People are just happy there is another new record to buy of artist they know and like. They tend to want to compare it to other copies they have and hope it turns out better than what they already have. Also in some cases they can get a nice box set of all the titles from an artist they like. If they get into talking about the mastering it's wanting to know which version of a song was put on a record, like you can see a few pages in this thread. Also bringing up Half Speed or Abbey Road is basically a descriptor and identifier of this specific title when there is quite a few newer issues of the same title out. Take this Tommy title, there was another Half Speed Miles did before moving to Abbey Road, a KG copy and now this one all within the last ten years, all of them can be bought new.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2022
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  10. Sir Talbot Buxomly

    Sir Talbot Buxomly Forum Resident

    Location:
    Glasgow, Scotland
    Thank you for this concise review. I've now ordered the record.
     
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  11. DK Pete

    DK Pete Forum Resident

    Location:
    Levittown. NY
    Mine arrived today. I haven’t listened to any of it yet but as I sat to visually examine the contents, I did get a bit frustrated in the packaging design. To you and anyone who’s waiting on its arrival, be forewarned that the cover, while a nice size in itself, is a very tight fit where the discs are concerned…at first, I couldn’t even figure out where the second of the two LP’s was. At any rate, I’m
    Just pointing out that extra care is required to gently pull these out of the cover. The white inners had to go so luckily I had two black lined inner sleeves from SleevieWonder to replace them with. The black Track label looks nice through the center holes. Another point…this cover is too big to sit comfortably in a standard outer sleeve…even one that’s made for gatefolds. Again luckily, I had two leftover extra large sleeves from a handful I had ordered to house my copies of All Things Must Pass and the super deluxe Deja Vu. The records are NOT going back inside the cover. They will sit outside and aside the cover with cover and records inside the outer sleeve.
    ….now to make some aural comparisons……
     
  12. jewelsnbinoculars

    jewelsnbinoculars Forum Resident

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    Curious for more detailed thoughts on folks who’ve heard this and the kg cut
     
  13. nightenrock

    nightenrock Forum Resident

    It barely fits. Very very snug.
     
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  14. DK Pete

    DK Pete Forum Resident

    Location:
    Levittown. NY
    I've been doing just that with specific tracks for about the last hour; there's no clear cut winner and suffice it to say that either pressing of this historic album is very much worth having. The first song I compared was Overture. No shocking differences except for the Classic version being a touch stronger on the bass. This isn't enough of a difference to make one preferable over the other.

    I then went to Christmas which hit me between the eyes immediately. On the Classic version, the lead vocal sounds more compressed and slightly pushed back; on the half speed, Daltrey sounds like he's in the room. Much more upfront with noticeable increased clarity. Instrumentally, the drums have slightly more presence on the Classicbut again, not enough to make a significant difference. I stuck with the next track, Cousin Kevin which, save for the Listening to You coda, is my favorite song in the album. On this one, the half speed is my clear winner. For different reasons, it sounds great on both versions...Classic has a deep, smooth overall texture while the half speed beats it out for clarity and vocal presence.

    I followed with Pinball Wizard because I was interested in the acoustic guitar. I found the overall track to have a higher ended sound on the half speed while also lacking the depth of the deeper sounding Classic version. The acoustic guitar has a crisper, more percussive texture in the Classic while retaining a better low end balance than the half speed. Classic wins. Next, I'm Free which, like Christmas, has significant differences again, mostly on the lead vocal. On the Classic, it has a pushed back, more compressed sound while on the HS, Daltrey is, once again, in the room with you. Finally, I jumped to We're Not Gonna Take It. Of the three vinyl versions I have including this one, this song sounds best on the HS. The Classic version has significant "s' sibilance on the first part of the song. While still there on the HS, it's significantly reduced making this version the winner for me.

    ....so these are all initial impressions. But it's obvious to me that neither pressing is the blatant winner; both excell in their own ways in different areas. As a major fan of the album (I also have they super deluxe CD box well as the SACD double CD), I think both are worth having...but if someone wanted to go with one or the other, there isnt a "wrong" choice.
     
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  15. DK Pete

    DK Pete Forum Resident

    Location:
    Levittown. NY
    You don't hear the vocal difference in Christmas??? I think it jumps out at you.
     
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  16. One_L

    One_L Forum Resident

    Location:
    Lower Left Coast
    Nice review - thanks.

    Now rip the vinyl and take all the best sounding tracks from the various pressings and make an "Ultimate Vinyl" version of Tommy !
     
  17. DK Pete

    DK Pete Forum Resident

    Location:
    Levittown. NY
    I wish I had the KG version to also compare with. Do I complete the “trio”, do I skip it…? It’s not hard to find.
     
  18. Doctorwu

    Doctorwu Senior Member

    Thanks you so much for your wonderfully detailed review, Much appreciated, I think I’ll buy the half-speed.
     
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  19. drbryant

    drbryant Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    I have all of those versions (and a Japan SHM-SACD as well) so I am not going to buy this, but it is indeed good to hear a Miles-Abbey Road Half Speed Mastered LP getting some enthusiastic reviews. I have been avoiding them, but will put aside my prejudices and pick up the next title I want even if it has the Abbey Road Obi.
     
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  20. Salvatore Pagano

    Salvatore Pagano Forum Resident

    Location:
    Florence - Italy
    I bought it and am listening to it now. Leaving aside the fact that side A is full of non-fills (I will replace it), however, I was quite disappointed. What happened to the low frequencies? I'm not talking about some "pumped" version but about the low frequencies that I have been listening to on this record for 30 years. In this half speed mastered version I feel that the mid-highs have been emphasized (too much!) While a lot has been lost in the low frequency. A lot! I honestly don't understand, for me this is NOT a good remaster, absolutely not. Obviously that's my point of view but I know this record by heart and it's definitely not a version to top the list for me. The "punch" is exactly what is missing and my hi-fi system does not struggle to hide it when it is there. There is nothing punchy here. My 2 cents...

    p.s. I have a UK 1969 pressing of Tommy. I wanted this new repress only because what I have from the point of view of noises is a vg/vg+.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2022
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  21. DK Pete

    DK Pete Forum Resident

    Location:
    Levittown. NY
    Interesting; while I agree that it focuses more so on the high end, I find the low end pretty well balanced where the Classic sometimes seems a bit over bloated. Far as the vinyl quality itself, I’ve yet to hear the entire album all the way through; but I heard no issues whatsoever on the few tracks I sampled for comparison.
     
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  22. Salvatore Pagano

    Salvatore Pagano Forum Resident

    Location:
    Florence - Italy
    Unfortunately side 1 & 2 of my copy have many non-fills, but I know that "**** happens" and maybe is just my case ;)
     
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  23. J_D__

    J_D__ Senior Member

    Location:
    Huntersville, NC
    Maybe because my subwoofer is set so high, it compensates for issues you hear.
     
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  24. DK Pete

    DK Pete Forum Resident

    Location:
    Levittown. NY
    It’s nuts…these days we listen to a new album more to see if we hear any unwanted sounds from the vinyl than to enjoy the music.
     
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  25. bloodlemons

    bloodlemons Forum Resident

    Location:
    Grit City, USA
    I get a ton of low end from this pressing! Bass and drum growl and crunch I'd never heard before. Everyone has different systems and contexts, but I am very surprised by your review. It's too bad; I wish you could enjoy it as much as I am!
    FWIW, I have an original US pressing, and a German box set pressing with which to compare, so I'm not firing blind here!
     
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